 So long, SR4, ...and thanks for all the fish. |
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 Sep 8 2005, 03:32 PM
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#51
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253  |
Yes, notice I haven't yet stopped playing SR, or at least, as much an I can here in HK, but I have stopped buying the sourcebooks. However, most people you would meet up with to play SR will be using the default system, not Fox1s houeruled history.
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Sep 8 2005, 03:32 PM
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#52
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Look mfb. I don´t care what system you choose to play with. I know your reasons are good for choosing SR3, and Ellery´s reasons are very clear. I´m just trying to point out that you guys have a tendency to imply that my preferences are inferior to yours. I don´t live in a world were every opinion has to be proven beyond a doubt. Therefore I will not try to prove that my opinion is as good as yours. I just think every human being should try to be humble enough to acknowledge that there may be ways to think that are different from your own, that are just as good though in a different way. And I do seem to get the message out of Ellery´s posts, that she is trying to prove her way of playing RPG´s is better for whatever reason. Though I can´t claim that that discussion holds no value, I´m personally inclined to take offence at the subject rather than try to counter it with arguments for my own way of playing. See, I think the MOST important and wonderful thing with RPG´s is that they can be played however you want.
Fox1. Somehow I´m not sure I appreciate that support. It seems every bit as disdainful as what I was adressing in the first place. ;) (I´m sure you ment well. And really, if you want to claim I have a bad taste in rules, that´s alright with me.) |
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Sep 8 2005, 03:39 PM
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#53
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Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 16-August 05 Member No.: 7,558 |
Just a note. SR4 brought be back into playing the game. I had played 1st and 2nd edition and jumped ship when 3rd came around. The fourth edition has stoked my enthusiasm to play Shadowrun again. And so far the rules look great to me. But I don't all that 3rd edition baggage.
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Sep 8 2005, 03:48 PM
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#54
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Name one. And no, d20 does not count. d20 is very good at what it attempts to do: create a simple, streamlined, nearly (difficult) math-free environment for heroic-style fantasy gaming. It does what it's supposed to do very well, and the mechanics of the d20 system match up with the flavor of d&d well enough that it keeps from getting in the way of the storytelling and roleplaying, which is the best you can really hope for with a system to simple. I contend that a clunky game system cannot fluorish if the mechanics actually interfere with the style of play it was designed for. The exception to this are things like that movie Plan 9 from Outer Space: oddities kept around simply because they are oddities, campy, banal. |
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Sep 8 2005, 03:48 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
Anyone that I end up playing Shadowrun with will be playing "Fox1s houeruled history". :) You are of course free to limit your purchases. And you are free to do so based upon nothing more than the presence of immortal elves and all powerful dragons. I'm just expressing a bit of wonder that those two minor points would cause you to do so. But everyone has a different point at which something becomes unacceptable. I would do the exact same thing with the only difference being the theshold amount of objectionable material. I'm worrying about 4th edition being that break point. Cyberware being considered obsolete? No more classic Matrix even in image if not mechanics (I didn't like the change from 2nd to 3rd edition)? I wish the book was out... |
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Sep 8 2005, 03:49 PM
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#56
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I too have felt the judgmental tone mintcar has mentioned from several posters, but in Ellery's defense, I would like to mention he did come forward a while back and effectively said that one of the reasons he didn't see much reason to continue many SR3/SR4 discussions was that some people appeared to thing stuff that he considered flawed was the next best thing.
Over the past few months, Ellery has put forward considerate, well explained and well-thought out criticism of SR4 (both prior and after its release) and as such his contribution should only be seen as something positive unlike others (on both sides of the fence) who've made next to no constructive contributions, and those whose presence on this forum has boiled down to spewing inflamatory and reactionary rhetoric. I have enjoyed reading his posts, even though I don't agree on a lot of fundamentals because the way I play the game is significantly different. |
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Sep 8 2005, 03:51 PM
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#57
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm definitely judgemental, but you're not the target. the target is the SR4 devs, and the game they've put out. for the record, ell is a she, not a he. |
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Sep 8 2005, 03:56 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Understanding something is almost always - objectively speaking - better than not understanding it, as long as the subject itself is worth knowing. (which is where we seem to be in disagreement) No one is saying that you're a worse person for enjoying RPGs your way, but don't say "ignorance is bliss" and expect universal agreement. |
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Sep 8 2005, 04:00 PM
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#59
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
One could state that, if ignorance is bliss, there is a reason why some people won't enjoy playing SR4 - SR3 needs so much more bliss to be played.
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Sep 8 2005, 04:07 PM
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#60
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
One could also state that the squirrel impressionist movement of the early 23rd century had a major impact on the evolution of metallic breakfast cereals... |
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Sep 8 2005, 04:08 PM
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#61
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
without trying to be insulting, SR4 incorporates quite a bit more ignorance in every area except the Matrix rules.
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Sep 8 2005, 04:11 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
I could do far more than than. Heck SR 3rd edition counts itself and in spades. A TN modifier system where a modifier may not modify? Silly beyond belief. A die resolution system that requires GMs to make extensive cheat sheets covering game probabilities if he's interested in matching TNs that he must chose to his specific PC group? Clunky in the extreme. I could go on and on. But SR was and is a successful game with many people having buckets of fun? How could that be? Because problems like those didn't bother them. So what if a TN 6 and 7 provide identical results, just don't pay attention. So what if I can't easily figure out success chances, more dice = better and I'll get a 'feel' for it somewhere along the line. It's all just a minor point. A game's success depends upon its players ignoring or avoiding its weaknesses. And players are good at it. And so designers don't bother to correct the problems. Deadlands comes out years latter than SR, and it still has the TN 'feature' in its rules. Players have been proven to be very accepting of even obvious mechanical defects in their games. Why spend the effect to fix it? And because players are so accepting of such game design, those who would desire more from their game mechanics are left in the cold- making house rules to correct simple errors at best, or coverting entire game settings to different rules at worse. |
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Sep 8 2005, 04:11 PM
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#63
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
mfb: You can´t say "guys" about a group of people containing both guys and gals? They do it in movies all the time. :)
I know your target is SR4 and I would be the biggest fool to take offence at everything you throw at it. If I take offence it´s never with the critticism, it´s with some tiny thing in there that reveals a tiny (or in some cases large) disdain of a more free-form playstyle. I would like to open my arms here, and say that I wish we could try to understand eachother. In most cases, the gamers I associate with hold ruleslawyery in great disdain (free-form is sort of the norm in Sweden, really). I´ve been here for years now in an environment that is entirely different from that. So tell me; have I expressed disdain (subtly or not so subtly) for your way of playing? I have certainly had great practice in understanding your viewpoint, so I´m hoping I´ve been able to avoid that at large, but you never know. Synner: I´ll try to be respectful of Ellery´s contribution. I´m not trying to start any fights. |
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Sep 8 2005, 04:17 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
It wasn't meant to be disdainful. I certainly respect your method of gaming although from what I've seen so far it is very different indeed than my own. I've know people who played without any rules at all. And I've seen others that played with rules that were exceedly bad for what they were doing. They can do so well, and with great results. Best wishes for much future fun. |
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Sep 8 2005, 04:18 PM
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#65
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not that i've noticed. don't get me wrong, i can get into more freeform gaming styles--but that's not, generally, what i'm looking for when i play SR (partly because, up until now, that's really not what the SR was optimized for).
most of the ire you guys get from me is reflected. it's not necessarily aimed at you, you're just in the blast radius. some of you may have noticed that i've got a bit of a temper. SR4, honestly, provokes me. i work really hard to keep a civil tone, but it's difficult when the points of SR4 that are most offensive to me are discussed. places where i can express myself without breaking the local rules see a more complete version of my feelings on the game system. you guys get mfb lite. |
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Sep 8 2005, 04:28 PM
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#66
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
For the record I do care about rules. I have no other reason to be here than to discuss them. (I just prefere them to easily get out of the way for roleplaying)
Hmm. If this is the end of this argument, it must be a first. When did a discussion last end with a group hug on dumpshock? :twirl: |
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Sep 8 2005, 04:32 PM
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#67
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, if you go strictly by the book and its rules - even outside digital warfare, most elemental mechanics in SR4 are simply less stupid or broken: Check out the rules for Languages, Vehicles or even Weapons... |
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Sep 8 2005, 04:35 PM
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#68
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
This thread is closed, warnings handed out. Can we please knock off the drama, and worse, flaming and/or baiting those who disagree with you. And this goes for BOTH sides of the coin, kids.
At this point, I don't care if you think SR4 is the best thing since sliced bread or a steaming pile of elephant crap. KNock it off. Bull |
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