Low-power Start, Lowering the BP? |
Low-power Start, Lowering the BP? |
Sep 9 2005, 01:54 AM
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#1
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,662 |
So, obviously, a lot of people have commented that it's too easy to start with a character that is already more or less an olympian at their chosen specialty, leaving only "branching out" as an outlet for further development. The readily apparent solution is to lower the number of starting build points to 300 (say), and simply start the characters lower on the totem pole.
My question, then, is: has anyone tried this, or otherwise formed an opinion on the subject? |
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Sep 9 2005, 02:41 AM
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#2
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. If you want to give people more room to expand but don't want to relax caps you'd just ake the caps hard. If you don't let people start with any skills past 4, the PCs will suck at everything, rather than being damned awesome at one thing and sucking at everything else.
-Frank |
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Sep 9 2005, 02:55 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,662 |
The thing I don't like about this idea is that it makes the lack of specialization worse; every character ends up starting with fours in everything. I wouldn't consider lowering the maximum starting skill levels unless I also lowered the BPs available, so I don't have a situation where max = party average. Lowering the skill and attribute limits by one (can only start with two 4s and one 5, and only one attribute at 5 (before racial mods)) makes sense to me when combined with lowering starting BPs to 300-350, however. And lowering starting availability to 8 or 8R or such. 400 seems to be too powerful for an extended campaign (not enough room for expansion unless you allow people to get even more rediculous numbers of dice to roll), 10 BPs would be rediculously weak... surely there's a point in between where the balance is just right for characters to be capable of handling "newly-minted shadowrunner" levels of challenges. The kind of challenges that can be surpased by good strategy and a pool of 8 dice in your best unmodified attribute + skill. |
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Sep 9 2005, 03:40 AM
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#4
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No matter what you lower the BP totals to, people are going to have a 5 in their prime stat and a 6 in their prime skill, and possibly even a specialization in it. That's a given. If you give people 200 points, they'll still maximize their core abilities. That's a given. The BP total just determines how much they suck at everything else.
That's what an SR4 character does - they roxxor at one task, and are about the level of a Triad Posse Member at anything else. Basically a starting character is an ordinary person with a single extraordinary talent. The stat and skill caps prevent a character from being much better than that. The BP totals are already capping you at the level of a Threat Rating 4 Grunt, and you can't min/max your way out of that. -Frank |
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Sep 9 2005, 03:59 AM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,662 |
Yeah, that's why I suggested lowering the skill/attribute cap along with the BPs. But if you just lower the caps, players will put the leftover BPs in gear or whatever; from what I can tell, everything more or less needs to be lowered in step with each other, or you end up with, say, everyone running around with every other skill at 4, or 250k nuyen in gear, or whatever. |
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Sep 9 2005, 04:19 AM
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#6
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I doubled the amount of skills and nuyens that people can but with their build points, and I didn't find everyone to be the same. Really, I didn't. People get a lot of fours, but they also get a lot of ones and twos.
There is an amount of points you could give everyone that would cause them to max out, but the 400 BP, even 600 BP level isn't all that close to it. -Frank |
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Sep 9 2005, 04:23 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773 |
It seems to me that people keep forgeting that 6 in a skill in SR4 is not the same as 6 in a skill in SR3. Its closer to the WW system, where as a Gm you usualy need a damn good reason for a PC to have a skill at 4 or 5. At that point they are near the peak of what anyone can be. I find it silly that most players would ever start with a 6 or a 5 in anything. If a player at my table had a 6 I would ask them just how they got to be one of the best in the world at that skill. The scales are different now. I think we need to relearn what each value means.
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Sep 9 2005, 04:25 AM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,662 |
That's exactly right. Starting with a 6 in a skill feels to me like starting DnD as a 10th level character. |
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Sep 9 2005, 04:27 AM
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#9
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
If you don't want that to happen, start charging people linear amounts to raise their skills after chargen. As long as getting to a six is so damned expensive after character generation, it's always going to be in your interest to start with a 6 in one thing even if everything else has to be a 1. If you go linear, it becomes more of a stylistic choice. Although even then everyone is going to want to be really good at aomething. -Frank |
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Sep 9 2005, 04:49 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773 |
I find it easier just to talk to my players and tell them my expectations than to change the rules to actualy make it harder. I'll just tell them they can raise it to 6 after they've been shadowrunning long enough to actualy become one of the best in the world with guns. No need to change the rules when i could just remind my players what exactly a 6 means.
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Sep 9 2005, 07:18 AM
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#11
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
After 13 years of playing SR2 & SR3 it's hard to learn the difference. ;) |
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Sep 9 2005, 02:20 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,662 |
Even the fact that characters start with a large number of 4s bothers me. Isn't that "veteran" level? How can the typical character be a veteran in a half dozen fields? That's ok for a short campaign, where you might not mind characters starting out at a high level in their careers, but it doesn't give the long-campaign feel of building from street scum to elite runner. Were my next campaign not going to be of the former type, I would be concerned.
So, by how much should I lower the BPs if I want to compensate for lowering the skill caps by one (two 4s or one 5)? Maybe I ought to just build a character who seems semi-average (3s in all attributes, a couple 4s in skills, some cyberware up to availability 8 or 10, etc), count the BP, and round up to the nearest 50? |
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Sep 9 2005, 02:53 PM
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#13
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Iīve started making characters with my group with 300 BP total, allowing for 200 BP in attributes. Availability maxed at 8. The characters have turned out amazingly well. We want to make a group of promising street thugs, basicly. They will have very limited magic and gear. The skills will be low, leaving room for improvement. The strong point of these charcters will be attributes. They will be slightly more naturaly gifted than people around them on the street level, but otherwise similar in resources and power. Character advancement will focus on additional skills, magic powers and gear, thatīs an arrangement we have. Itīs going to be great.
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Sep 9 2005, 03:57 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,662 |
That sounds more like what I would expect for a typical campaign. What're your rules for starting skills? |
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Sep 9 2005, 04:16 PM
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#15
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The thing is, you can't have strong attributes on 200 BP, regardless of what your set-up is, or how many extra points you have elsewhere. That's an average of attribute of 3.5 - which means that amongst the 8 stats, the character has 4 more attribute points than a "civilian bystander". So a man on the street really isn't much different from you attribute wise. The only way a PC can stand out is if they have more skills than a normal person. Their attributes really aren't statistically different from a normal person no matter how they are arranged.
Yeah, the book says all kinds of crazy crap about how a skill of 7 is legendary and fantastic, but it really isn't. The only thing that makes things special is results that are special. A character with a skill of 6 and an attribute of 5 rolls 11 dice. That's nice and all, but remember that every brick in the wall of that field rolls 6 dice, and specialization adds 2 dice and good equipment adds 1-3. So your guy with a maxxed out skill and attributes as high as you can afford is actually no better than a faceless corporate wageslave if he's in his element and has the latest Neonet gear. The problem with SR4 is not that starting PCs can match Fastjack with only 57 Karma under their belt (although they can). The problem is that 5 bystander interns in the Aztechnology computer sciences department working together can match Fastjack with no Karma at all. Joe Blow Unexceptional rolls 6 dice. Using Teamwork, he can add 2 dice to another's test. Fastjack rolls 14 dice, and that's simply not a large enough bulge on faceless mooks to actually make Prime Runners noticeable. -Frank |
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Sep 9 2005, 04:30 PM
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#16
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
A '3' Attribute isn't really a civilian by-stander. It works out to more like the top stat of the civilian by-stander, with his others below it. Having multiple Averages isn't.
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Sep 9 2005, 04:38 PM
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#17
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Doesn't that defeat the entire point of calling it "average" if on average it isn't? |
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Sep 9 2005, 04:42 PM
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#18
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
If you are suggesting that it has a codified and obscured meaning, yes i agree. What do you think such a value should be called? Preferably a label using a single word, or perhaps two short ones. |
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Sep 9 2005, 06:04 PM
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#19
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I think you got him, blakkie. After all, how can a person be average if they are exeptional in one area? Joe average can not go above 3 in any attribute without leaving average behind.
Doomclown: I donīt have any special rules for skills. They arenīt that high because there isnīt that many points left if 200 of 300 are spent on physical and mental attributes. Iīm fortunate enough that my players are not very inclined to be satisfied with one maxed out skill. Such a character is boring to play and they know it. |
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Sep 9 2005, 06:28 PM
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#20
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Joe Average doesn't have to go above 3 to match legendary characters with the current caps. A "standard human" who is "straight out of college" has technical skills and logic of 3. 5 of those guys working together have a compbined computer check of 14 dice - which is the same as Fastjack. -Frank |
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Sep 9 2005, 06:33 PM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
They don't use the working together mechanism for that? Page #? |
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Sep 10 2005, 01:35 AM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 64 Joined: 17-December 04 Member No.: 6,886 |
You know, it's the other direction that's bugging me.
A standard human -- three in every stat -- has 160 BP of stats. So your starting runner is just a little above average. |
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Sep 10 2005, 06:00 AM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
To me, standard 400 BP characters are basically high level thugs/starting shadowrunners/street level runners. Which is what they said when they made 4th edition, they were lowering the power level.
With 400 BP, it is a CHALLENGE to make what i would consider a playable mage/adept/technomancer that is "runner" material. Simply because the BP are not there. The idea of 300 point characters, well frightens me because you simply cant play a mage/adept/techomancer. I mean 200 BP for attributes leaves 100 BP for money, your mage/adept/techomancer quality and linked special attribute, contacts, skill and EDGE. If everyone just has clubs and etiq(street) then your fine. But you can't go on a shadowrun with characters like that. I mean you should not even know a fixer yet, just a fence. Because all you can do is go steal stuff :| *shudder* the mage in the group would be lucky to roll 4 dice on a spellcasting test. |
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Sep 10 2005, 06:24 AM
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#24
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Yes. It lowers the power level that you can be stastically better at basketball than everyone else in the world at chargen except those who are also identical to you statistically because there is a ceiling on dice pools.
Sure it lowers the power level. And I'm Santa Claus. |
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Sep 10 2005, 06:31 AM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
Do you really think there are going to be alot of characters with skills of 7? I mean, i can see characters with skills of 5 specialization to 7. *Do other people think thats horribly overpowered at the start of the game, do specializations "count" as skill?* Tell me this santa, is fastjack no more thank a skill rank in your game? Is michal jordan meant to me "made" using sr4 char gen? |
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