IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Shadowrun Fourth Edition BBB Review, A review for the rest of us....
Shadow
post Sep 9 2005, 03:36 PM
Post #1


Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,545
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Gloomy Boise Idaho
Member No.: 2,006



When reading a book (for review) there are several ways to approach it. You can read the whole thing as quickly as possible making notes as you go. Or you can read it chapter by chapter and look at those individually. This is what I have chosen to do.

Since the announcement back in March I have read and participated in many of the SR4 threads. I loved some of the ideas and hated others. What I hope to accomplish is to let the rest of the DSF community in on the new BBB so that they can make an informed decision on whether to buy the hardback, the PDF, or not at all.

I am going to read the book a chapter at a time. I will then right on my overall opinion of the chapter and subject material. Hit on what is good, bad, and ugly. I will try and just use my opinions of the book in my hands. So no outside influence or other peoples opinions will influence me.

Feel free to post comments on what I say, agree disagree etc. If you are looking for something in particular in the book ask and I will see what I can do. I hope this helps you make a informed decision.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shadow
post Sep 9 2005, 03:46 PM
Post #2


Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,545
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Gloomy Boise Idaho
Member No.: 2,006



Don't judge a book by its cover...

I just don't get it. This cover really sucks. Sorry if I offend the artist but it does. And it isn't the subjective awfulness of some art. The art itself is just bad. It’s cluttered, it’s noisy, the people have no sense of proportion, and my biggest beef, none of the gear is recognizable as Shadowrun. The art is just plane bad.

The Logo for the new Shadowrun is less than impressive. The past Shadowrun logo’s have been much more evocative of the Shadowrun universe. The big S is more of a just a symbol that look… well I am not quite sure what it is supposed to look like. It has a vague tribal reference (the totem like art) but beyond that doesn’t do much for me.

So why did I call this chapter what I did? Because the inside of the book is phenomenal. The layout, the colors, the page numbering, the font. It is all very sharp and I like it a lot. I think they did a great job of making each page hi-tech looking.

The art is hit or miss on the inside. Some of it is very good, some of it is very bad. Overall when you see the good art you like it. When you see the bad art it is easy to ignore.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shadow
post Sep 9 2005, 03:50 PM
Post #3


Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,545
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Gloomy Boise Idaho
Member No.: 2,006



Buzzkill. Yep, that about sums it up.

Being a aspiring writer myself I am not comfortable reviewing another’s fiction. So I think I am going to pass. There are some other reasons for it to (mainly the number of F words). Some people this will bother, others it will not. It is easy not to read if it does. However, I would not recommend this fiction to any children, or to any people who have children and want to get them interested in RPG's. Going by the MPAA if this book were a movie it would be rated R for language and not suitable for people under 17.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shadow
post Sep 9 2005, 04:03 PM
Post #4


Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,545
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Gloomy Boise Idaho
Member No.: 2,006



Welcome to the Shadow…

I love that line. Its like in Star trek when they meet someone from the past, they always say, “welcome to the 24th century”. Love it, and I love the chapter.

The Good,

What a great outline of RPG’s, Shadowrun, and the game in general. A MUST read for anyone new to Shadowrun. Whoever wrote it really had a vision of how the game was supposed to be. They outline all the concepts that are unique to Shadowrun in a way that makes it easy to understand. Like what do runners do? What makes up a running team? What is a rigger? A brief description of the role of the team is included as well. And my absolute favorite part, the description of the kind of jobs Shadowrunners can take. Fun to read for new and old a like.

The Bad,

No a lot. It is a tight, well written chapter. Though, I did notice a change in tone from previous books. In the past Shadowrunner’s weren’t necessarily criminals. After all criminals are the bad guys. The corps were the bad guys and Shadowrunners were the good guys. In a dystopian world ruled by the mega’s Shadowrunners were as good as you got. The shift in tone is to a more traditional idea. Shadowrunners are petty criminals. Surviving in the cracks of the system I am afraid I don’t like that idea at all.

The Ugly,

Each chapter is prefaced with a piece of fiction that seam’s irrelevant to the chapter it brackets. The fiction is printed in a clumsy faux cursive font that is hard to read. At every corner they also seem to be trying to justify the Augmented Reality, something that feels like a gimmick to sell books, and not at all something a Shadowrunner would use.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blakkie
post Sep 9 2005, 05:01 PM
Post #5


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,718
Joined: 14-September 02
Member No.: 3,263



QUOTE (Shadow @ Sep 9 2005, 09:50 AM)
Going by the MPAA if this book were a movie it would be rated R for language and not suitable for people under 17.

I wouldn't put it just on the few swear words that SR4, and SR in general might garner such a rating. The concepts of organ legging and cannibalism likely wouldn't endear this book to them. Or to me considering a blanket approval for youth below, i don't know, maybe sixteen. Some may also take issue with how narcotics and other "mood enhancers" are discussed, which is not substantially different that previous SR books.

I'm not normally one to think that kids aren't people, or that shielding from the big bad world is the best idea, but i have a hard time envisioning a 14-year-old mature enough that i could give them this book to in good conscience. I'm sure they exist, and it wouldn't be the end of all if a 14 year old picked it up. After all many hear started playing at that age. I just have trouble mentally picturing who they might be.

YMMV of course since this is a morales issue.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aku
post Sep 9 2005, 07:05 PM
Post #6


Running, running, running
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,220
Joined: 18-October 04
From: North Carolina
Member No.: 6,769



and i think, as a general consenus, that shadowrun generally shouldnt be an "entry level" style of RPG to being with, due to it's concepts and language. Yes, we used Drek and Frag, but we all know what they were really saying... it's like the counselor on south park, where every third phrase is "mmm-kay"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Synner
post Sep 10 2005, 08:10 AM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,314
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado
Member No.: 185



Keep the review coming Shadow, I for one am appreciating it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shadow
post Sep 10 2005, 08:09 PM
Post #8


Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,545
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Gloomy Boise Idaho
Member No.: 2,006



Will do, I am reading each chapter carefully so to post as accurateley as I can. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shadow
post Sep 10 2005, 08:52 PM
Post #9


Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,545
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Gloomy Boise Idaho
Member No.: 2,006



A History Lesson for the Reality Impaired...

I was re-reading my reviews and realized that I was focusing on one positive and two negatives. I am going to balance that out starting now.

The Really Good,

Fastjack is back baby. I was expecting a rather boring read on the history. Why? Because its been reprinted in so many books exactly the same way that I must have read it a dozen times. Well not this time. Fastjack relates the story of the history of the future in a funny first person perspective. The writing is sharp and tight, and occasionally funny. I have to say I just love Fastjack.

The good,

This is a brief, and comprehensive record of the history of the future. If you are new to Shadowrun you need to read this. If your anyone but Ancient History you will learn something from reading this. This is what I learned
[ Spoiler ]
The art is another good thing. It really adds to the flavor of the chapter. The best one is the human goblinizing in my opinion. Though they are all good.

The Bad.

It's is long. I don't really see a way around that since there is so much to present. New players may find it a little daunting to read through it all. Even though it is well written.

The ugly,

I double checked just to make sure I wasn't leaving anything out, and I'm not. There is nothing about this chapter that is "really bad". Well done folks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hahnsoo
post Sep 10 2005, 09:10 PM
Post #10


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,587
Joined: 25-January 05
From: Berkeley, CA
Member No.: 7,014



I think my only complaint about that chapter is how quickly the Crash 2.0 and the Aftermath was glossed over. It throws out a few choice bits, but with few dates or explanations (when did Yamatetsu change their name to Evo? When was the NeoNET merger? These questions aren't even answered in System Failure). The rest of it is a good condensed version of the Shadowrun timeline, although I do miss the side-bars with specific dates. SR3's was probably the most informative of the four editions, but this one wins points for being short and to the point.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Paul
post Sep 10 2005, 09:17 PM
Post #11


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,001
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Michigan
Member No.: 1,514



[ Spoiler ]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Supercilious
post Sep 10 2005, 09:30 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 288
Joined: 7-December 04
Member No.: 6,873



QUOTE (Paul)
[ Spoiler ]

[ Spoiler ]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
L.D
post Sep 10 2005, 09:36 PM
Post #13


Harlequin
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 331
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 861



I agree with hahnsoo. I liked the history lesson, but the part between 2065-2070 was way too short. Hopefully will get more about it in one of the upcoming books.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
winterhawk11
post Sep 10 2005, 11:02 PM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 296
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Usually under a cat
Member No.: 864



QUOTE (Shadow)
Buzzkill.  Yep, that about sums it up.

Being a aspiring writer myself I am not comfortable reviewing another’s fiction. So I think I am going to pass. There are some other reasons for it to (mainly the number of F words). Some people this will bother, others it will not. It is easy not to read if it does. However, I would not recommend this fiction to any children, or to any people who have children and want to get them interested in RPG's. Going by the MPAA if this book were a movie it would be rated R for language and not suitable for people under 17.

It does kind of amaze me how wound up folks are getting over the F-words in "Buzzkill." Maybe it's just that I don't have kids and don't think that the world should be sanitized for kids (that's a parent's job: figuring out what kinds of things he or she wants the kids to see and being diligent about following up), but I guess I just don't see the big deal. It's a word. I never liked the "fake" swearwords in SR--I just couldn't find it believable that in less than 100 years people would stop using words that have been used for a long time previously and switch over to their bloodless counterparts, but as a freelancer I was perfectly happy with taking direction and using whatever slang set that went with the game.

For this story, I was instructed to use "real world" slang instead of "frag" and "drek" and "hoop." Does that mean that Rob told me to pour on the F-bombs? Nope. I just felt that this was the way the character would talk, and let him speak accordingly. I figured if the editors found it objectionable they'd cut it down or eliminate it and go back to "frag," but that didn't happen.

Shadowrun is a game primarily aimed IMO at older teens and twenty- and thirtysomethings. It's not a game for twelve-year-olds. Does that mean that twelve-year-olds can't (or shouldn't) enjoy it? Of course not. But it's not designed for their sensibilities. It's a game about criminals in a dystopian future. It's up to parents to decide whether this is okay or not.

Not ragging on you at all, Shadow (though I would have liked to have seen your review of the story) :) Your post just represented the convergence of someone mentioning this and my having the free time necessary to respond to it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sabosect
post Sep 10 2005, 11:11 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 807
Joined: 9-October 04
Member No.: 6,741



For the longest time in English, thee and thou were considered important parts of it. In less than a century, they were all merged with you.

You want other examples? Study the average piece of writing from the 1850s and the average piece from the 1900s. Or, try the difference between the 1740s and the 1800s.

My point: It is perfectly feasible for language to really change that much in a short amount of time. We can actually look back at history and see it having happened. Hell, we can look back at history and find major sweeping social changes that happened in less time.

So, yeah, the loss of the specialized language irks me. Why? Because anyone can study the modern world and realize how much those words are changing. Most of them are becomming used more and more in regular speech and are losing the same emphasis they once had. And, as they lose emphasis, other words are rising to take their place. Eventually, yes, the "f-word" is going to become mainstream and replaced by another word. And, worse, it's likely to happen while you watch.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wounded Ronin
post Sep 10 2005, 11:13 PM
Post #16


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,640
Joined: 6-June 04
Member No.: 6,383



I liked the Shadowslang. :(
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mortax
post Sep 10 2005, 11:26 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 571
Joined: 9-January 05
From: In the 9th circle of hell
Member No.: 6,950



Shadow,

Thank you very much for this review. I was looking for a good impartial look at what was in 4th, as I will not be able to purchase it for a while. Keep up the awsome work!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shadow
post Sep 11 2005, 05:46 AM
Post #18


Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,545
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Gloomy Boise Idaho
Member No.: 2,006



QUOTE (winterhawk11 @ Sep 10 2005, 03:02 PM)
It does kind of amaze me how wound up folks are getting over the F-words in "Buzzkill." Maybe it's just that I don't have kids and don't think that the world should be sanitized for kids (that's a parent's job: figuring out what kinds of things he or she wants the kids to see and being diligent about following up), but I guess I just don't see the big deal. It's a word. I never liked the "fake" swearwords in SR--I just couldn't find it believable that in less than 100 years people would stop using words that have been used for a long time previously and switch over to their bloodless counterparts, but as a freelancer I was perfectly happy with taking direction and using whatever slang set that went with the game.

For this story, I was instructed to use "real world" slang instead of "frag" and "drek" and "hoop." Does that mean that Rob told me to pour on the F-bombs? Nope. I just felt that this was the way the character would talk, and let him speak accordingly. I figured if the editors found it objectionable they'd cut it down or eliminate it and go back to "frag," but that didn't happen.

Shadowrun is a game primarily aimed IMO at older teens and twenty- and thirtysomethings. It's not a game for twelve-year-olds. Does that mean that twelve-year-olds can't (or shouldn't) enjoy it? Of course not. But it's not designed for their sensibilities. It's a game about criminals in a dystopian future. It's up to parents to decide whether this is okay or not.

Not ragging on you at all, Shadow (though I would have liked to have seen your review of the story) :) Your post just represented the convergence of someone mentioning this and my having the free time necessary to respond to it.


Winterhawk, I would like to say thank you for taking the time to post. Its great to hear from the author! And I didn't take it as you ragging on me :)

Its not about sanitization so much as it is about my state of mind. I don't watch porn, rated R movies, or listen to music that is really negative. Why? Beyond certain spiritual reasons (I wont go into it here DSF'ers seem to have a problem with religion) I feel, though it is just a word, it is a very negative word. Like other words I don't say. And I know there out there, but I choose not to immerse myself in them.

I'll tell you this, I read the story up to that point, and from what I saw I really liked. Especially the main character, he was my kind of dude. :) I hope you have a long and glorious career writing fiction, I really do.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
winterhawk11
post Sep 11 2005, 06:01 AM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 296
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Usually under a cat
Member No.: 864



QUOTE (Shadow)
Its not about sanitization so much as it is about my state of mind. I don't watch porn, rated R movies, or listen to music that is really negative. Why? Beyond certain spiritual reasons (I wont go into it here DSF'ers seem to have a problem with religion) I feel, though it is just a word, it is a very negative word. Like other words I don't say. And  I know there out there, but I choose not to immerse myself in them.

Hey, I completely respect that. There are things I don't read and words I don't say too (though, sadly, the F word isn't one of them anymore) :). I just feel like characters living in the kind of world that Shadowrun is supposed to represent would use real-world language. And if you'll notice, not everybody in the story used profanity--but it did fit with the characters who did, IMO.

If you stopped reading because of the profanity, I hope I can convince you to read further and just ignore the F-words--it really is basically a "good guys win" story, though with a dystopian Shadowrun spin to it.

Just pretend they're saying "Frag." :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shadow
post Sep 11 2005, 06:06 AM
Post #20


Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,545
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Gloomy Boise Idaho
Member No.: 2,006



Well your winning personality has sold me on it. :) I'll go back and give it a proper read and review :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blakkie
post Sep 11 2005, 07:57 AM
Post #21


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,718
Joined: 14-September 02
Member No.: 3,263



QUOTE (Shadow @ Sep 9 2005, 10:03 AM)
The Ugly,

Each chapter is prefaced with a piece of fiction that seam’s irrelevant to the chapter it brackets.

I forgot to comment on this. Going to have to call bullshit.

Each of those pieces of fiction are relevent to the chapter. The one at the start of Life on the Edge describes a typical 2070 'runner social setting. The one at the start of Creating A Shadowrunner is an example background for the why someone became a 'runner. The Skills chapter is prefaced by an example of a team with very different skill/language sets, and how out of water someone is without a given skill is. And so on.

P.S. That font doth surely suck though. :dead:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hahnsoo
post Sep 11 2005, 08:04 AM
Post #22


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,587
Joined: 25-January 05
From: Berkeley, CA
Member No.: 7,014



Whether or not its relevant, the wordcount for those beginning chapter pieces are better used for other things. The font sucks (as everyone has noted already), and they serve very little purpose other than to fill up space... I'd much rather have a Captain Chaos-esque missive or a short quote (a la BBB 2nd edition) at the beginning of each chapter, but truthfully they don't need to be there considering all of the condensed fluff that was written at the beginning of the book about the game world.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blakkie
post Sep 11 2005, 08:36 AM
Post #23


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,718
Joined: 14-September 02
Member No.: 3,263



Well Fastjack did the one in front of the history chapter, which is about as close to CC as we are going to get.

I kinda liked them. That is what CC stuff was suppose to do, right? Background mood fluff. All taking up less space than the full page pictures you find scattered about, which can be more cryptic to the uninitiated.

P.S. They could have shortened them up a touch maybe. But they really weren't that long, less than a page since they shared it with the header.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Sep 11 2005, 11:21 AM
Post #24


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



I would not like the fiction to be something else. It is very effective for getting a feel for the setting. Especially the AR stuff. Augumented reality is a new concept and something that has major impact on what is possible and how you think. The fiction helps to open your eyes to that, IMO. Claiming it isn´t something a shadowrunner would use is taking the easy way out. It is much more interesting to take on the full consequence of it. When you view the concept without prejudice I´m sure you will find that utilizing it opens so many possibilities that it would be foolish not to risk it in most cases. There are plenty of ways to protect yourself, and you can isolate the things that you want to protect the most. Surely not all runners are technophobes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hahnsoo
post Sep 11 2005, 08:57 PM
Post #25


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,587
Joined: 25-January 05
From: Berkeley, CA
Member No.: 7,014



QUOTE (mintcar)
I would not like the fiction to be something else. It is very effective for getting a feel for the setting. Especially the AR stuff. Augumented reality is a new concept and something that has major impact on what is possible and how you think. The fiction helps to open your eyes to that, IMO.

I hate clogging up this thread even more (this is, after all, Shadow's review), but the AR stuff was already adequately described in the Wireless World section, with examples and full detailed descriptions in the sidebars. The first-page fiction means one more page per chapter of redundant fluff. Note that all books need some fluff... I'm saying that the beginning-of-the-chapter stuff is not necessary and could be use for, oh, I don't know... more gear, clarified rules, and optional rules page specific to each chapter.

If you are talking about the beginning story by winterhawk11, then I apologize.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 05:23 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.