Ritual Spellcasting Rules kill Great Ghost Dance Options

[Kerrygold]

I've just read the Ritual Spellcasting Rules...

Now i'm thinking about the various limitations and the possibilities for big groups of casters to do really big ritual spells...

Limitations:
- all members must have the same tradition - no prob
- all members must know the spell - no prob
- the force of the lodge limits the force of the spell - ok -> big spell, big lodge = no prob
- the force of the lodge limits the contributing members - should be ok, too...
- the lowest ritual spellcasting skill limits the contributing members -
WHAT??? in combination of the skill limits in SR4 this makes ritual spells with more than 6 members impossible... or more then 7 members, if each member has the skill aptitude quality (everybody needs this...)

conclusion:
so the great ghost was done by max 7 dudes with skill aptitude "Ritul Spellcasting"
maybe my group should do this to...

Comments? Have i missed something?

[Quix]

Did the dancers qualify as ritual casters? Atleast in the novels the dancers didn't even have to be magically active. I would think the GGD used them more like sacrifices then as ritual casters.

[Kerrygold]

ok, maybe some dancers only provided energy for the ritual

but someone must have channeled these energy...

[the_dunner]

Remember, the GGD used Blood Magic. That could change everything.

[Cochise]

[apollo124]

Speaking with my GM hat on, I would NEVER allow my PC's to do massive world-altering magics like a GGD, programming an AI, or other incredible things that make vast changes in the world. That would be like modern "Crips" creating a man portable "briefcase" nuke (God forbid).

Bear in mind, that in the history, the GGD was the focus of the old US's attention, and a whole country full of the best scientists couldn't come up with the hows and whys of the Dance. Granted, they at the time didn't have the modern understanding of magic that is around in the 2070's.

Still, the Dance would be considered a magical Weapon of Mass Destruction, and as such would be a highly protected and secret procedure. If you knew how to do magics that could destroy miles of territory and kill thousands, who would you teach to do it?

So it wouldn't bum me out too bad that the rules don't allow PC Dancers, it is a little out of the power range of street thugs. :D

[Grinder]

[apollo124]

True, Grinder, but EEEEP :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Ancient History]

I could say a word here...

[kigmatzomat]

Or purpose. I've been in and run games where the campaign was based around something big and world changing. Sometimes you tried to stop it, sometimes you tried to make it happens, other times you wanted to mitigate it.

If the players have it as their goal; hey great, you have a plot hook. You can always give them little dribs and drabs (An AI that destabilizes in minutes, knowledge on inefficient blood magic, etc) that if well thought out won't cause problems for your game but will give them progress.

[Grinder]

If a campaign is based around the "characters are able to shake the world" than i would be fine.
But i'm an long-time Earthdawn player/gm - a game which allow very legendary deeds done by the characters. At the highler circles (=levels) characters can become really powerful and change the world literally.

[blakkie]

[Demonseed Elite]

The Great Ghost Dance is one of the rare events which very likely doesn't work exactly like normal ritual spellcasting, which is one of the reasons it hasn't been reproduced. It's a special case, with special conditions and techniques which the world at large does not understand.

[Ancient History]

Well, I won't bore y'all with the dull and drab details of ritual blood magic, but I will remind you that it has already been established that the Great Ghost Dance took place in many locations - multiple ritual circles throughout the continent. Daniel Howling Coyote and his personal circle of Ghost Dancers were at the center of it, of course, but they were not alone.

[FrankTrollman]

I do actually wonder how anyone is ever supposed to learn ritual magic. If you have a ritual spellcasting of 1, you can only participate with 1 character - which is you. But you need a Spotter! And the Spotter is a member of the ritual, which means that if you have a Ritual Spellcasting of 1, you can't have another guy in the ritual and you can't do anything.

Worse, the book claims that ritual teams normally use spirits to act as spotters (which is reasonable, since a spotter is going to have to remain astrally active for 12 hours - the ritual leader's magic attribute), and that a spotter is a member of the ritual team. Spirits don't have Ritual Spellcasting (except Ancestor Spirits).

So the maximum number of spirits that you can have in your team is usually zero, and you need them to act as a spotter. So really, Ritual Spellcasting doesn't do anything at all.

-Frank

[Cynic project]

One we all know that shadowrun forth ed was rushed. despite it being rushed and have a "few" loop holes like this. It is still better than say the NWod, and in most case better than shaodwrun third ed. I am thinking of heading to Frank's house today and working on a post of house rules that we have worked on.

[Ancient History]

Frank, you're just trolling now.

[blakkie]

[FrankTrollman]

[Cochise]

[hyzmarca]

[Kanada Ten]

Is it stated anywhere that the Great Ghost Dance was sorcery? Could it not also have been something different, perhaps something like totem channeling or conjuring?

Also, with Ritual Sorcery, can't the one member of the group also function as the Spotter, if say the target was in sight for the castings duration, or is that forbidden in SR4?

[Ancient History]

[hobgoblin]

hmm, ritual sorcery.
sure, with only the SR4 rules you will need a spotter to land the magic.
but when the advanced magic sourcebook comes around we will most likely see all kinds of other ways, voodoo dolls anyone?

[Kerrygold]

ok, my initatial post with the GGD should be provocative...

i'll agree with the general consensus: the GGD or similar rituals is nothing which should be possible for normal players, therefore we dont need rules for it

i also think the current rules are good and practical for groups of under 6 chars

BUT

what do you do as a GM with your little magical backyard conspiracy consisting of - let us say - 10 initiates
these are supposed to kick some player asses per ritual spellcasting... why cant all 10 mages participate in the ritual??
such magical groups are limited to player scale ritual spellcasting, if you obey the rules as GM... this contradicts for me with every threats, tir na nog, threats2, whatever worldspanning magical group...