I've just read the Ritual Spellcasting Rules...

Now i'm thinking about the various limitations and the possibilities for big groups of casters to do really big ritual spells...

Limitations:
- all members must have the same tradition - no prob
- all members must know the spell - no prob
- the force of the lodge limits the force of the spell - ok -> big spell, big lodge = no prob
- the force of the lodge limits the contributing members - should be ok, too...
- the lowest ritual spellcasting skill limits the contributing members -
WHAT??? in combination of the skill limits in SR4 this makes ritual spells with more than 6 members impossible... or more then 7 members, if each member has the skill aptitude quality (everybody needs this...)

conclusion:
so the great ghost was done by max 7 dudes with skill aptitude "Ritul Spellcasting"
maybe my group should do this to...

Comments? Have i missed something?

Did the dancers qualify as ritual casters? Atleast in the novels the dancers didn't even have to be magically active. I would think the GGD used them more like sacrifices then as ritual casters.

ok, maybe some dancers only provided energy for the ritual

but someone must have channeled these energy...

Remember, the GGD used Blood Magic. That could change everything.

Speaking with my GM hat on, I would NEVER allow my PC's to do massive world-altering magics like a GGD, programming an AI, or other incredible things that make vast changes in the world. That would be like modern "Crips" creating a man portable "briefcase" nuke (God forbid).

Bear in mind, that in the history, the GGD was the focus of the old US's attention, and a whole country full of the best scientists couldn't come up with the hows and whys of the Dance. Granted, they at the time didn't have the modern understanding of magic that is around in the 2070's.

Still, the Dance would be considered a magical Weapon of Mass Destruction, and as such would be a highly protected and secret procedure. If you knew how to do magics that could destroy miles of territory and kill thousands, who would you teach to do it?

So it wouldn't bum me out too bad that the rules don't allow PC Dancers, it is a little out of the power range of street thugs.

True, Grinder, but EEEEP

I could say a word here...

Or purpose. I've been in and run games where the campaign was based around something big and world changing. Sometimes you tried to stop it, sometimes you tried to make it happens, other times you wanted to mitigate it.

If the players have it as their goal; hey great, you have a plot hook. You can always give them little dribs and drabs (An AI that destabilizes in minutes, knowledge on inefficient blood magic, etc) that if well thought out won't cause problems for your game but will give them progress.

If a campaign is based around the "characters are able to shake the world" than i would be fine.
But i'm an long-time Earthdawn player/gm - a game which allow very legendary deeds done by the characters. At the highler circles (=levels) characters can become really powerful and change the world literally.

The Great Ghost Dance is one of the rare events which very likely doesn't work exactly like normal ritual spellcasting, which is one of the reasons it hasn't been reproduced. It's a special case, with special conditions and techniques which the world at large does not understand.

Well, I won't bore y'all with the dull and drab details of ritual blood magic, but I will remind you that it has already been established that the Great Ghost Dance took place in many locations - multiple ritual circles throughout the continent. Daniel Howling Coyote and his personal circle of Ghost Dancers were at the center of it, of course, but they were not alone.

I do actually wonder how anyone is ever supposed to learn ritual magic. If you have a ritual spellcasting of 1, you can only participate with 1 character - which is you. But you need a Spotter! And the Spotter is a member of the ritual, which means that if you have a Ritual Spellcasting of 1, you can't have another guy in the ritual and you can't do anything.

Worse, the book claims that ritual teams normally use spirits to act as spotters (which is reasonable, since a spotter is going to have to remain astrally active for 12 hours - the ritual leader's magic attribute), and that a spotter is a member of the ritual team. Spirits don't have Ritual Spellcasting (except Ancestor Spirits).

So the maximum number of spirits that you can have in your team is usually zero, and you need them to act as a spotter. So really, Ritual Spellcasting doesn't do anything at all.

-Frank

One we all know that shadowrun forth ed was rushed. despite it being rushed and have a "few" loop holes like this. It is still better than say the NWod, and in most case better than shaodwrun third ed. I am thinking of heading to Frank's house today and working on a post of house rules that we have worked on.

Frank, you're just trolling now.

Is it stated anywhere that the Great Ghost Dance was sorcery? Could it not also have been something different, perhaps something like totem channeling or conjuring?

Also, with Ritual Sorcery, can't the one member of the group also function as the Spotter, if say the target was in sight for the castings duration, or is that forbidden in SR4?

hmm, ritual sorcery.
sure, with only the SR4 rules you will need a spotter to land the magic.
but when the advanced magic sourcebook comes around we will most likely see all kinds of other ways, voodoo dolls anyone?

ok, my initatial post with the GGD should be provocative...

i'll agree with the general consensus: the GGD or similar rituals is nothing which should be possible for normal players, therefore we dont need rules for it

i also think the current rules are good and practical for groups of under 6 chars

BUT

what do you do as a GM with your little magical backyard conspiracy consisting of - let us say - 10 initiates
these are supposed to kick some player asses per ritual spellcasting... why cant all 10 mages participate in the ritual??
such magical groups are limited to player scale ritual spellcasting, if you obey the rules as GM... this contradicts for me with every threats, tir na nog, threats2, whatever worldspanning magical group...

Some NPCs don't necessarily play by the "rules" (although adhering to the rules is definitely a virtue where I game). Look at the Black Lodge and their "tiered" initiatory scheme. I'm sure they've found a way to circumvent the maximum ritual size. Same with the Blood Mage Gestalt, and possibly the Aleph Society. Besides which, if you are running a campaign where this becomes an issue for the PCs, you probably have way too many spellcasters of the same tradition for a typical shadowrun game.

The rules say that the spotter either needs to be a member of the ritual group, or a spirit bound to a member of the ritual group. Nowhere does it say that the spirit needs to be a member of the ritual group. You can have a Ritual Spellcasting of 1, designate yourself to be the only member of the ritual, and have a spirit bound to yourself as a spotter.

If you wanted to do 'large' magical groups that span the world, you could always slightly modify the ritual so that it is 'Tier' based.

Main Group focuses all the power of the smaller groups. Each small group of 6 people follows the normal rules for ritual stuff and sends the power to the 'main group' which takes all that power and uses it to create whatever effect the purpose is.

Maybe theres a metamagic tecnique that allows the leader to include an unlimited number of aditional participants. (or maybe his grade*10, or *100 additional participants)

i vote for the "speed of plot" explanation when it comes to the GGD.

my 'interpretation' of the GGD (winces waiting for AH to smack me) was that it was some variant of the ED ritual spell Call Forth the Mealstrom taught to the natives by 'someone', using shall we say somewhat older (ED) ritual techniques and blood magic to extend it and the amount of extra power that could be thrown into it.

That being said, I think limiting riutal sorcery to 7 members sucks. That leaves groups like the Ordo and the (remainming) Blood mage Gestalt as the only ones that can do this kind of magic, assuming blood magic lets you add more, since it does in canon ala Dragon Heart Trilogy

Hrm. There are a number of different suggestion for what the GGD actually did - including those who think it accomplished nothing on the physical plane (there's a great theory behind the one, too).

Anywho y'all aren't using your imaginations. Imagine, if you will, the Blood Mage Gestalt - ten initiates becoming a single entity. Now imagine seven of those entities performing ritual magic...

The Ordo Maximus has never been involved (to the best of our knowledge) in any ritual magic greater than cybermancy; and seven should be enough for that. The Black Lodge doesn't even have that sort of juice, although their tiered initiate structure might help out a bit (we'll see, we'll see).

The DHT is not your best place to look for examples of normal ritual magic - besides which, we all know blood magic is a bit more spread out these days.

Metamagics. I'm guessing that is how they'll add a lot of stuff in Street Magic. Like larger RS groups, and alternate targeting/tracking means. [edit]and blood/sacrifical sorcery?[/edit]

EDIT: Once the layout of the metamagics takes shape, if the GM really wanted that sort of thing in their game they could make up a metamagic for linking multiple regular Ritual Magic groups into one casting entity.

P.S. The novels have added a lot of capabilities and situations to 'canon' that have never, and quite possibly will never have direct support in the rules.

If I recall, you are right about the "someone" teaching the Great Ghost Dance. I think that Thais, Aina and Ysrthgrathe's son, taught it to the dancers. I'm pretty sure that there was a reference to him teaching it to an earlier group, before the Awakening, to "see what would happen." Not sure if it ever explicitly stated one way or the other about him teaching Daniel Howling Coyote's group.

As far as a powerful (and large) initiatory group goes you could always have junior members of the group doing other work. Astral patrol to defend the ritual site, for example, because the team is active and vulnerable while concentrating. They might attempt a preliminary or secondary spell - decrease attribute perhaps - that would increase the effectiveness of the main effort. There are possibilities without cranking the actual ritual group to 20 or whatever.

So, uh, wear gloves. Really thick ones...

No, see, the problem is that the critical reaction would tend to force the hemispheres apart with far more force than you could apply to hold them together with just your hands, gloved or not.