 Ritual Spellcasting Rules kill Great Ghost Dance |
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 Sep 10 2005, 09:48 PM
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#26
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Mr. Johnson  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014  |
Some NPCs don't necessarily play by the "rules" (although adhering to the rules is definitely a virtue where I game). Look at the Black Lodge and their "tiered" initiatory scheme. I'm sure they've found a way to circumvent the maximum ritual size. Same with the Blood Mage Gestalt, and possibly the Aleph Society. Besides which, if you are running a campaign where this becomes an issue for the PCs, you probably have way too many spellcasters of the same tradition for a typical shadowrun game.
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Sep 10 2005, 09:57 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 7-December 04 Member No.: 6,873 |
It is easy, when disappointed, to find more reasons to be disappointed. But those particular rules are not the best written... |
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Sep 10 2005, 10:08 PM
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#28
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The rules say that the spotter either needs to be a member of the ritual group, or a spirit bound to a member of the ritual group. Nowhere does it say that the spirit needs to be a member of the ritual group. You can have a Ritual Spellcasting of 1, designate yourself to be the only member of the ritual, and have a spirit bound to yourself as a spotter.
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Sep 10 2005, 10:19 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,591 |
If you wanted to do 'large' magical groups that span the world, you could always slightly modify the ritual so that it is 'Tier' based.
Main Group focuses all the power of the smaller groups. Each small group of 6 people follows the normal rules for ritual stuff and sends the power to the 'main group' which takes all that power and uses it to create whatever effect the purpose is. |
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Sep 10 2005, 10:25 PM
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#30
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I'll disagree with that. The GGD was so powerful because of the mass self-sacrifice of hundreds, possibly thousands, of people. Any PC magician with sacrificing who can convince a thousand people to drink the green koolaid in is name should be able to cast on that scale. This, of course, begs the question of why anyone with thousands of fanatical followers is running the shadows but that is a different discussion for a different topic. |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:24 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773 |
Maybe theres a metamagic tecnique that allows the leader to include an unlimited number of aditional participants. (or maybe his grade*10, or *100 additional participants)
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Sep 11 2005, 12:50 AM
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#32
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i vote for the "speed of plot" explanation when it comes to the GGD.
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Sep 11 2005, 05:10 AM
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#33
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
my 'interpretation' of the GGD (winces waiting for AH to smack me) was that it was some variant of the ED ritual spell Call Forth the Mealstrom taught to the natives by 'someone', using shall we say somewhat older (ED) ritual techniques and blood magic to extend it and the amount of extra power that could be thrown into it.
That being said, I think limiting riutal sorcery to 7 members sucks. That leaves groups like the Ordo and the (remainming) Blood mage Gestalt as the only ones that can do this kind of magic, assuming blood magic lets you add more, since it does in canon ala Dragon Heart Trilogy |
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Sep 11 2005, 05:48 AM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Hrm. There are a number of different suggestion for what the GGD actually did - including those who think it accomplished nothing on the physical plane (there's a great theory behind the one, too).
Anywho y'all aren't using your imaginations. Imagine, if you will, the Blood Mage Gestalt - ten initiates becoming a single entity. Now imagine seven of those entities performing ritual magic... The Ordo Maximus has never been involved (to the best of our knowledge) in any ritual magic greater than cybermancy; and seven should be enough for that. The Black Lodge doesn't even have that sort of juice, although their tiered initiate structure might help out a bit (we'll see, we'll see). The DHT is not your best place to look for examples of normal ritual magic - besides which, we all know blood magic is a bit more spread out these days. |
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Sep 11 2005, 05:52 AM
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#35
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Metamagics. I'm guessing that is how they'll add a lot of stuff in Street Magic. Like larger RS groups, and alternate targeting/tracking means. [edit]and blood/sacrifical sorcery?[/edit]
EDIT: Once the layout of the metamagics takes shape, if the GM really wanted that sort of thing in their game they could make up a metamagic for linking multiple regular Ritual Magic groups into one casting entity. P.S. The novels have added a lot of capabilities and situations to 'canon' that have never, and quite possibly will never have direct support in the rules. |
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Sep 11 2005, 05:57 AM
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#36
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
sorry, wasn't trying to suggest that they did. Just using it as a theoretical example. As for DHT, jsut another example. Wow AH, that was suprisingly gentle. :oops: |
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Sep 11 2005, 06:17 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 7-February 05 Member No.: 7,063 |
If I recall, you are right about the "someone" teaching the Great Ghost Dance. I think that Thais, Aina and Ysrthgrathe's son, taught it to the dancers. I'm pretty sure that there was a reference to him teaching it to an earlier group, before the Awakening, to "see what would happen." Not sure if it ever explicitly stated one way or the other about him teaching Daniel Howling Coyote's group.
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Sep 11 2005, 06:34 AM
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#38
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The Sixth World GGD wasn't the first time there was a Ghost Dance... there was a historical version of it that was performed in the late 1800s by certain Plains Native American tribes... as far as we know, it did not have the intended effect back then. *shrugs* EDIT: Found a brief reference in the Wikipedia to one (of many, I will add) accounts of the Ghost Dance as a spiritual movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Dance |
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Sep 11 2005, 06:41 AM
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#39
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
yeah, and according to the novel World's without Ends, that was also Thais. Aina told him that the magic wasn't strong enough yet, 'cause he was whining about how it didn't work. A lot of people get killed, and he goes off an a whine about his freakin' god complex. So now he plays with nagas. upgrade? |
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Sep 12 2005, 05:12 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
Granted, I failed out of Nuke Power school in the Navy, but I am still fairly certain it is a little more complex than that. Refining your material is a major feat, and getting enough of it is another. A dirty bomb is easy, but bona-fide fission isn't that simple, otherwise everyone would be doing it. IMO |
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Sep 12 2005, 05:56 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
As far as a powerful (and large) initiatory group goes you could always have junior members of the group doing other work. Astral patrol to defend the ritual site, for example, because the team is active and vulnerable while concentrating. They might attempt a preliminary or secondary spell - decrease attribute perhaps - that would increase the effectiveness of the main effort. There are possibilities without cranking the actual ritual group to 20 or whatever.
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Sep 12 2005, 06:56 AM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 1,644 |
So close, but so far. Sure, that will cause the mass to become critical, but you will not be able to hold the two pieces together long enough for the supercritical reaction to begin. That little design issue is what makes the creation of U-235 bombs interesting. |
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Sep 12 2005, 10:13 AM
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#43
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-March 05 Member No.: 7,236 |
So, uh, wear gloves. Really thick ones...
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Sep 12 2005, 10:27 AM
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#44
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Target Group: Members Posts: 40 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 1,644 |
No, see, the problem is that the critical reaction would tend to force the hemispheres apart with far more force than you could apply to hold them together with just your hands, gloved or not.
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