 Burstfire...it's like a punchline |
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 Sep 10 2005, 10:48 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042  |
Firing a long narrow burst out of an SMG, you suffer a -5 dice pool, use up six bullets, and gain only +5 DV. So you use up six times the ammunition, trade off about half your dice pool, and only double your damage. You also, incidentally, make it easier to dodge, because with a dice pool cut from 10 to 5, you can now expect 1 or 2 hits, instead of 3, and your target gets no modifiers to his dodge at all.
I will admit that this system does make firefights a lot more survivable. But off the top of my head, I'd say net hits on burst fire should multiply the damage, with a cap equal to the number of bullets fired. The target should get to double his armor rating. Thoughts? |
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Sep 10 2005, 10:56 PM
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#2
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Your suggestion seems bulky. Like it stands you get 5 free hits counting for damage, for the price of a few bullets and less accuracy. You´re the one with knowledge of firearms as I take it. Doesn´t autofire make shooting less accurate?
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Sep 10 2005, 11:00 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,591 |
Please see page 151 for modifiers to the Defender's Dice pool in relation for getting shot at with bursts.
Modifiers range from -2 all the way to -9 to the Defender. No need for more rules. |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:02 PM
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#4
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
That´s only for wide bursts.
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Sep 10 2005, 11:04 PM
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#5
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The barrel may rise due to recoil as you fire, but if you know how to control the weapon this won't cause a meaningful reduction in accuracy. The first bullet would go exactly where you pointed the weapon. The other bullets would form a pattern around the first. SR autofire rules have always been unrealistic. |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:10 PM
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#6
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I can't believe the guys in charge stuck with the "all-or-nothing" burstfire we've all come to love.
Time to get crackin' on another house-rule. |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:14 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, so recoil does make the gun jump, and reduces accuracy.
However, on a long narrow burst, the rules impose a very heavy -5 dice pool, while granting only a +5 DV, which only doubles the damage. So where did the other four bullets go? The -5 dice pool already represents the loss of accuracy due to recoil. Why am I getting such weak damage? If I switched my SMG to semiautomatic, I could instead fire twice, with dice pools of 10 and 9, and expect to inflict 8 DV with each shot, for a total of sixteen. If my target has REA 4, and 12 dice to resist damage, I can expect to inflict 6 points of damage. If I fired a long narrow burst instead, I'd roll a dice pool of 5, expecting 1 or 2 hits. My target would roll REA 4 to dodge, with a very strong chance of tying my roll, and thereby causing a total miss. Assuming for the sake of argument one net hit, my target rolls 12 dice to resist (BOD + Armor), can expect 4 hits, and I again land at 6 points of damage, presuming I hit at all. So why do it? Of course the size of the dice pools will vary from character to character, but the basic issue remains. |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:16 PM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Yeah, but the caveat is that 1.) at great range the small perturbations of your barrel become more important and 2.) short bursts versus the garden hose of love. |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:17 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
-5 dice < +5DV
It would take an extra 5 hits to generate that +5DV. So basically it assumes that you rolled a Hit on all those dice, but risk not hitting at all. |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:19 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Wounded Ronin: Range modifiers to dice pool take into account your issue.
Blakkie: You can't get around the fact that you fired six bullets, but only doubled the base damage. The net hits adding to DV makes sense in semiautomatic, but is underpowered in burst fire. |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:21 PM
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#11
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
One way or another, that first shot out of the barrel should still be right on....
edit: Or at least as on as you aimed it. |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:25 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
It is so true. the recoil perturbation on the barrel could be mesured as an angle. The loss of accuracy caused will then be proportionnal to the distance of the target. |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:25 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Recoil compensation ?
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Sep 10 2005, 11:46 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 5-September 02 From: Everywhere and Nowhere Baby Member No.: 3,225 |
Yeah its -5 dice but you can always put gas vent 3 and a stock on the gun and your at -1 die for the +5 dv. Seems like a good trade off to me.
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Sep 10 2005, 11:49 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 |
or slap gasvent 3 and a shockpad on the ares alpha... 6pts total rc (good for full auto and bursts)
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Sep 10 2005, 11:58 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Actually, that's not the most you can do with it. Under SR3 rules, I can get it higher. Gas Vent 4 + Shock Pad + Customized Grip. Total of 8 points of RC. Add in the modifiers for a rangefinder and the SL-2 and it becomes nearly impossible to miss a shot on full auto. You don't even want to know about my recoilless belt-fed HMG. So, what relevance does this have to the conversation? Simple. Under SR3, there was always more advantage to piling on as much RC as you could find in a full auto weapon and then shooting it than there was in burst fire. Yes, you could make a completely recoilless burstfire weapon, but you always did more damage with more bullets. Conservation really isn't that much of a problem if you shop smart. Now, what about SR4? Well, the penalties that encouraged it in SR3 are even worse now. Instead of being a damned good idea to pile on as much RC as possible, it's now almost a requirement. If anything, I fully expect more people to be walking around in SR4 with guns that can fire 6+ rounds without recoil than I did in SR3. |
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Sep 11 2005, 12:03 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598 |
Well any gun I had for my chars besides SS weapons wound up with some recoil comp unless it was equipped with a silencer/suppressor
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Sep 11 2005, 12:48 AM
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#18
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
They didn't all hit the same spot (if they did it wouldn't be any harder to dodge), so it is quite possible they didn't all hit. P.S. This is abstracted combat after all. |
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Sep 11 2005, 04:18 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
"Only" +5 DV? Normally, to get an extra 5 DV you'll need 15 dice. It's an extremely good trade-off. Systems that actually resolve burst fire on a bullet-by-bullet basis tend to have armor DR, which gets subtracted from each and every shot, and they also make it quite hard to hit with more than one or two bullets out of a burst because they don't have the fantasy recoil comp rules that SR does. The entire SR3 and SR4 firearm systems are abstract things barely grounded in reality, but they sure as hell aren't stingy when it comes to the effects of burst fire... |
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Sep 11 2005, 05:13 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
blakkie: The idea that not all the bullets hit is represented by the -5 dice pool.
mmu1: It's a terrible trade off. As I demonstrated earlier, you're better off firing on semiauto. And this system is telling me that the base damage for one shot is 5, and the base damage for six is 10. Your point that more 15 dice are required to expect 5 more hits on a to-hit roll is irrelevant, because we aren't talking about the skill of the user, we're talking about the raw power of the firearm. How much lead is flying through the air, not how well it was aimed. |
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Sep 11 2005, 05:17 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
The skill of the user is applicable and relevant to the discussion, just not condusive to your arguement.
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Sep 11 2005, 06:19 AM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Says who? |
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Sep 11 2005, 01:17 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Blakkie: What else could the -5 dp modifier be meant to represent except loss of accuracy due to recoil, resulting in some bullets missing the target?
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Sep 11 2005, 01:31 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 5-September 02 From: Everywhere and Nowhere Baby Member No.: 3,225 |
I cant see you are better of with semi auto if you have the compensation for firing bursts which is possible to get, or at least to compensate for alot of the recoil.
What would you prefer to see for firing short, long and full auto bursts ? |
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Sep 11 2005, 03:08 PM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
I think the truth is that you are both correct: The -5dp represents loss of accuracy, and the low(?) +5 dv represnts that with a basic hit with a burst, not all of the bullets actually hit in a way that is very damaging to the target. With more successes, however, you managed to get a good hit, thus raising the damage indicating that more of the bullets hit in vulnerable places... |
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