 Burstfire...it's like a punchline |
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 Sep 11 2005, 03:22 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718  |
It's a bad trade-off only if you have the time to empty your gun one bullet at a time, and the target is not wearing armor. Game mechanicly, multiplying damage by the number of shots fired would make burst-fire unrealisticly effective unless you also multiplied the targets armor and body by the same number. If you fired one shot at a time, the target woul get to resist each one, so the same should apply with a burst. This would lead to rolling handfulls of dice, and slow the game un-reasonably. It's simpler just to apply a modifier then roll each bullet. For example. Shooting your RC 3 Hn'K at a Bod 3 human in an 8/6 armor jacket: Semi auto: Roll 10 dice, get 3.33... successes average for 8.33.. DV (5 base) x2 = 16.66.. (8.33 each) The target rolls Reaction to avoid GETTING hit (avg 1 success, dropping the DV of each to 7.33) then Bod + Armor to resist damage. He gets (assumeing all 3's for attributes) 1 success to avoid and 3.66.. successes to resist for each shot. Total damage reduction = 9.333.. Total Damage taken by the target: 7.33.. STUN! (your DV for each shot is below his armor value) Let us now consider fireing a pair of short bursts at the same target, to maximize effectiveness and demonstrate the advantages of burt-fire, both will be narrow: You roll 10 dice to hit (full compensation), avg 3.33 successes for a DV of 10.33 Target rolls 3 dice, avg 1 success. He takes 9.33 resisted by 11 dice avg successes: 3.66 Target takes 5.66 boxes of physical damage (9.33 > armor of 8 ) Second burst: roll 7 dice (recoil. Ain't life a bitch) for an average of 2.33 successes. DV: 9.33 Target rolls.. 3 dice to dodge gets 1 successes. Resists 8.33 damage with 11 dice for 3.66 successes. takes 4.33 physical damage. Total damage is 5.66 boxes of Physical plus 4.33 boxes physical = 10 physical damage and one dead Bod 3 human. Now 10 physical is greater then 7.33 stun in my book. I have neglectied to include wound penilties or statistical models (sensitivity anailisis) in this to keep things simple, but the odds are decient that if you fired six individual shots with an SMG, in the situation described above, some would hit and be stopped by armor (stun dmg). Some would penetrate (unlikely, but if you got a good roll and he missed his reaction roll, you need 4 net successes which is hard to get on 10 dice vs. 3) , and some would miss completely (ok, maybe 1 near the end. 7 dice vs. 3 is good odds). The chance of bullets missing goes up as the recoil increases. If you fired two long bursts the last rounds would be quite unlikely to hit at all. (2 dice vs. 3 and you need to win, not tie) The trick here is that would make the game less fun. I realise this is unrealistic. I accept te system is abstract. You want perfect realism? Join the army. There is a "campaign" going on in Iraq in right now that is looking for "players". I hear the system they use for modeling wound balistics is very true-to-life. There is even a complex political system you can get involved with if you like that kind of thing. |
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Sep 11 2005, 04:47 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Let me get this straight......
I've got a character wearing 7 ballistic armor. Now his enemy is using a gun base 6P damage capable of semi-automatic fire or burst fire. Firing automatic the enemy hits doing 6P base damage and does stun damage. But if firing a burst the enemy does 8P base damage and does physical damage. Does the Logic seem a little flawed here? ( Ah who am I kidding the logic was even worse in SR3 ) |
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Sep 11 2005, 04:49 PM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
nope, thats wrong, modified DV is only base DV +nethits, not including burst or auto modfiers
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Sep 11 2005, 04:53 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
Are you sure the damage added by the burst help piercing the armor ? It is not logical indead.
I think in real life a full auto is very efficient against a target close from you, and very ineffective at long range. The rules don't take care of that. |
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Sep 11 2005, 07:20 PM
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#30
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The thing to remember is that thee is only one damage resistance test, and damage is an opposed roll. That means that the initial damage doesn't even really matter - the important thing is how much damage you have over and above their soak.
So if you do 7 DV, that isn't less than a 50% bonus to damage over 5 DV, it's almost double. Because what actually happens is that your opponent rolls about 9-10 dice and gets about 3 successes on the soak test. And that means that your opponent is actually taking about 2 wounds from a 5 DV attack and about 4 wounds from a 7 DV attack. Basically the DV of an attack is not a linear scale. Two 3 DV attacks does not make a 6 DV attack. The way Shadowrun damage works, each additional DV you add is a bigger and bigger deal since it is more and more certain that it corresponds to an actual wound level on your opponent. So this entire conversation is perplexing. Sure, the autofire rules are pretty abstract, and the rules for wide bursts should be a little friendlier if you want people to actually use them, but the essential premise that adding 2 DV to a 5 DV weapon is adding less than half to the overall power of the attack is menifestly false and clearly grounded in a lack of understanding the SR4 mechanics. -Frank |
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Sep 11 2005, 07:55 PM
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I tried that, but they hung up on me when I said I could make it from 4:00-10:00 PM EST on Sundays. ~J |
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Sep 11 2005, 09:32 PM
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#32
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
What I find amusing is the premise that placing 5 bullets down the same channel should inherently be more traumatising to a body than putting one in the chest, one in the gut, and one in each leg. Or that either of these wound patterns is 'five times' as traumatizing as a single bullet.
I wasn't aware people had damage meters that allowed us to determine if being stabbed five times is more traumatizing than being stabbed by five knives at once. Remember: the damage system is abstracted, and predicated on the cinematics and playability of it, not exhaustive real-world testing. Very few people in the RPG world want to play a game where they can probably survive a single shot, but the moment someone switches to autofire, they're assured they have to rip up their sheet. |
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