Glitches, Shadowrunners are bumbling dumb-@$$es |
Glitches, Shadowrunners are bumbling dumb-@$$es |
Sep 10 2005, 11:19 PM
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#1
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Is it me or do glitches seem to pop up a whole helluva lot? Not overwhelmingly so, but more than you expect to happen to a skilled professional?
Here I was assuming shadowrunners were a cut above the average thug or street punk, and were usually hired because they were more reliable, deniable means to accomplish an objective. I guess it must just be my gaming style. Sure, in real life there will be complications to any given situation, but more often than not, those are the result of the situation and not the operator's skills. This is just a little frustrating, and I was wondering if I am the only one who feels this way? |
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Sep 10 2005, 11:23 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Nope. In SR4, the runners are the street punks. If you want people who are a cut above the rest, you're playing the wrong version.
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Sep 10 2005, 11:25 PM
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#3
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Well, I wouldn't say I'll be playing it much longer ;)
(Not just because of the glitches, but for a host of other reasons...just to clarify, so people don't jump to conclusions) |
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Sep 11 2005, 01:14 AM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
And therein lies my biggest objection to the new edition... |
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Sep 11 2005, 01:59 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
Ooh! Witty one liners! Lot of substance in those. :eek:
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Sep 11 2005, 02:48 AM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Cal "not-so-free" State Member No.: 844 |
Here's the probability for getting a glitch (calculated here: SR Dice Roll Probability Calculator) : Dice Rolled: % Chance of a glitch 1d: 16.67% 2d: 30.56% 3d: 7.41% 4d: 13.19% 5d: 3.55% 6d: 6.23% 7d: 1.76% 8d: 3.07% 9d: 0.90% 10d: 1.55% 11d: 0.46% 12d: 0.79% This is used if it's half the dice (round up) roll 1s. If it's half the dice (round down): Dice Rolled: % Chance of a glitch 1d: 16.67% 2d: 30.56% 3d: 42.13% 4d: 13.19% 5d: 19.62% 6d: 6.23% 7d: 9.58% 8d: 3.07% 9d: 4.80% 10d: 1.55% 11d: 2.45% 12d: 0.79% Both ways have their problems, where rounding up generally makes those rolling an odd number of dice less likely to roll a glitch than someone rolling one more die. Rounding down causes the opposite, where a person rolling an even number of dice is less likely to roll a glitch than someone rolling 1 die more. Either way, an average person with a professional rating in their skill (3 + 3) will roll a glitch about 6% of the time. If they are specialized in that skill (3 + 3 + 2) they will reduce the probability by (approx.) half (3.07%).
(SR4 p 55)
With "dramatic" and "entertaining" being the key words, it places a lot of the responsibility on the GM to create events on the fly within those limitations. If the GM takes the stance that glitches are not meant to turn the PCs into bumbling idiots then the GM is free to set the blame on outside stimuli creating a mood of "the world against the runners" rather than the "runners against themselves." It's all dependant upon your frame of reference. |
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Sep 11 2005, 04:21 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I salute you for that brave attempt at self-critcism... |
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Sep 11 2005, 04:27 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 17-August 05 Member No.: 7,566 |
My response had the same thought put into it as they put into theirs. 8)
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Sep 11 2005, 04:29 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Really? Is that why it's possible to make starting characters with world-class levels of ability? (or higher, if they're heavily cybered or are adepts) I think you're confusing "street level" with "street punk"... |
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Sep 11 2005, 04:29 AM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Oh, look! DrJest just jumped off a bridge! |
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Sep 11 2005, 04:36 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
The best in the world has a 9 in the attribute, probably a 7 in the stat, and all of the gee-whiz ultra-expensive equipment to back it. Can SR4 characters start out that way? Nope. Can they come close? Yep. But no closer than any other street punk. |
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Sep 11 2005, 05:18 AM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I suggest you ought to read what the SR4 rulebook defines as a world-class level of ability. (or elite/legendary, to be more precise) If that doesn't help, let me lay it out: Someone with a professional level of skill, a specialization in that skill, and an average linked attribute has a die pool of eight. A runner with an ability of 5, skill of 5, specialization, and 2 measly extra points in an attribute from cyber has a die pool of fourteen. (and I intentionally went far out of my way not to min-max the runner, here) You're welcome to insist that calling the runner a "street punk" makes sense despite the fact that the definitions laid down by the designers, the game mechanics, and the sample characters in the book all are in disagreement with your claims, but there are words for people who come up with their own reality that's different from everyone else's, and I don't think you're a journalist, which leaves one other... |
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Sep 11 2005, 05:35 AM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Consider that a die pool of 14 represents someone with the absolute human maximum ability and a specialization in a skill.
Having both expceptional attribute and exceptional aptitude in a skill, and have both the time and resources to max both the skill in the stat have to be an exceedlingly rare occurance. What I find most insulting is that it is trivial for an adept to beat the maximum conceavalbe human ability. With 300 BP I was able to max an adept that had the maximum human possible in intimidate, negotiations, etiquette, and con and 'olympic class' leadership. And this adept still had plenty of room to grow his skills. In SR3 when you see a character with, say, Leadership/political 8/12, you can point at him and say (and not feel too stupid about it) 'historians will compare this guy to Caesar, Churchill, and Lincoln". In SR4, it's: historians will compare this guy to the dumpster diving social adept that lives down the block. |
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Sep 11 2005, 06:35 AM
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#14
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Holy sh*t I just shot my drink out my nose! :rotfl: |
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Sep 11 2005, 07:09 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
I read it. The typical starting troll surpasses it in some areas with ease. The numbers need revised, but they always did in every edition.
Professional skill doesn't mean as much unless you have professional equipment to back it. What separates the professionals from the amatures in the real world and SR4 is not just the level of skill, but the equipment used. Being able to shoot the left toe off a dwarf child's foot while chugging bear blindfolded in a suborbital (the child's on the street, of course) does not make you a professional sniper if you are using a pistol. The hangup I see a lot of you having is the idea of skill. Well, so what? Yes, I have met people who are damned accurate with weapons, often to the point of military precision. Are all of them in the military? No. Some of them are just amatures who are extremely good.
Actually, I was using the definition of what shadowrunners are from the book, and it in essense labels them as common criminals. Just because the street punk is skilled doesn't mean he's not a street punk. Next time you want to use definitions, make sure all of them agree with you. And if you really need a page number for that, feel free to check the index. |
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Sep 11 2005, 08:10 AM
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#16
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
I have found it quite difficult to do anything while chugging bears. They claw and bite. |
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Sep 11 2005, 08:38 AM
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#17
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
but yet you still try. You should stop in to the drop bear thread. you would do well there valiant warrior. Chug on my son. Chug on.
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Sep 11 2005, 08:42 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 9-September 05 From: Outback...of your house Member No.: 7,722 |
Once you've had bear,
for no other you'll care! :beret: |
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Sep 11 2005, 08:42 AM
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#19
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
The Chosen One hath returned
:spin: :rotate: :spin: :rotate: |
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Sep 11 2005, 09:21 AM
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#20
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Do you even realize that it was perfectly legal for a starting Adept of SR3 to have Leadership 6(12)? As there was no Social Pool anymore, it didn't even matter that half of that was magic... Whether he was King of the boardroom or king of gangland, he was king. If you try comparing unaugmented skills and augmented ones, you will fail. |
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Sep 11 2005, 09:24 AM
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#21
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Welcome to the sixth world, friend. Here be dragons, magic and wonderful things. (And not so wonderful things, like nobodies with the social adepery of the great leaders of past day.) If you were to compare a SR3 physical adept or street sam to historical fighters, what would you come up with then? |
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Sep 11 2005, 02:37 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
That's funny - I've read the same book, and I see nothing there describing shadowrunners as "common". In fact, sections like the Friends and Foes chapter describing what "primer runners" built with equal resources to the PCs are like make it crystal clear that - aside from what you may choose to call them, SR4 runners are clearly distinguished from "street punks" by their level of ability. (they're on the same level as government agents and company men) So why don't you try again - this time, without claiming the book states something it doesn't, and without basing your argument on made-up "professional equipment". Red Samurai and Tir Ghosts - again, if you go by the book, instead of making shit up - use the same assault rifles and wired reflexes that a runner might have... |
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Sep 11 2005, 06:15 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 27-January 05 Member No.: 7,022 |
Maybe i didn't get the book right, but the SR4 system as a more street level feeling to it but the 400BP shadowrunner character are no street punk. If you take a look and compare any archetype with the sample character in friends and foes you will feel that the PC aren't street punks. My players look more like the red Samourai sample character than any other in that section. I don't think that any one of you is suggesting that the Red Samourai are street punks?
Not to hijack the tread i will point out that glitch aren't critical glitch. You're suggested to annoy your player on a glitch with some bad side effect. On a critical glitch you're suggested to really piss your player with dramatic effect. Now that's a difference. The frequency of critical glitch isn't so bad. I would never kill a character because he roll a 4 instead of a 5. Some glitch should just be minor annoyance, as in the quick draw example in the rule book. Now on a critical glitch, it's up to you... Also, i'm pretty sure that since my player characters got many more dices than the average NPC. The opposition will glitch (and critical glitch) on more dramatic moment than they. When they will face prime runners... well, that's a different story. -Spider |
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Sep 11 2005, 06:21 PM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That only became true after SotA:2064. It was a stupid idea then and hasn't gotten any less so. ~J |
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Sep 11 2005, 06:25 PM
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#25
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yet it's canon for SR3... too bad.
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