IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Glitches, Shadowrunners are bumbling dumb-@$$es
FrostyNSO
post Sep 10 2005, 11:19 PM
Post #1


Resident Legionnaire
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,136
Joined: 8-August 04
From: Usually Work
Member No.: 6,550



Is it me or do glitches seem to pop up a whole helluva lot? Not overwhelmingly so, but more than you expect to happen to a skilled professional?

Here I was assuming shadowrunners were a cut above the average thug or street punk, and were usually hired because they were more reliable, deniable means to accomplish an objective. I guess it must just be my gaming style.

Sure, in real life there will be complications to any given situation, but more often than not, those are the result of the situation and not the operator's skills. This is just a little frustrating, and I was wondering if I am the only one who feels this way?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sabosect
post Sep 10 2005, 11:23 PM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 807
Joined: 9-October 04
Member No.: 6,741



Nope. In SR4, the runners are the street punks. If you want people who are a cut above the rest, you're playing the wrong version.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrostyNSO
post Sep 10 2005, 11:25 PM
Post #3


Resident Legionnaire
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,136
Joined: 8-August 04
From: Usually Work
Member No.: 6,550



Well, I wouldn't say I'll be playing it much longer ;)

(Not just because of the glitches, but for a host of other reasons...just to clarify, so people don't jump to conclusions)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DrJest
post Sep 11 2005, 01:14 AM
Post #4


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,133
Joined: 3-October 04
Member No.: 6,722



QUOTE (Sabosect)
Nope. In SR4, the runners are the street punks. If you want people who are a cut above the rest, you're playing the wrong version.

And therein lies my biggest objection to the new edition...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Autarkis
post Sep 11 2005, 01:59 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 119
Joined: 17-August 05
Member No.: 7,566



Ooh! Witty one liners! Lot of substance in those. :eek:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fizzygoo
post Sep 11 2005, 02:48 AM
Post #6


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Cal "not-so-free" State
Member No.: 844



Here's the probability for getting a glitch (calculated here: SR Dice Roll Probability Calculator) :

Dice Rolled: % Chance of a glitch
1d: 16.67%
2d: 30.56%
3d: 7.41%
4d: 13.19%
5d: 3.55%
6d: 6.23%
7d: 1.76%
8d: 3.07%
9d: 0.90%
10d: 1.55%
11d: 0.46%
12d: 0.79%

This is used if it's half the dice (round up) roll 1s.
If it's half the dice (round down):

Dice Rolled: % Chance of a glitch
1d: 16.67%
2d: 30.56%
3d: 42.13%
4d: 13.19%
5d: 19.62%
6d: 6.23%
7d: 9.58%
8d: 3.07%
9d: 4.80%
10d: 1.55%
11d: 2.45%
12d: 0.79%

Both ways have their problems, where rounding up generally makes those rolling an odd number of dice less likely to roll a glitch than someone rolling one more die. Rounding down causes the opposite, where a person rolling an even number of dice is less likely to roll a glitch than someone rolling 1 die more.

Either way, an average person with a professional rating in their skill (3 + 3) will roll a glitch about 6% of the time. If they are specialized in that skill (3 + 3 + 2) they will reduce the probability by (approx.) half (3.07%).

QUOTE
The exact nature of the glitch is up to the
gamemaster, though we recommend you choose a negative effect
that is dramatic or entertaining, but not disastrous. The
nature of the glitch can be tempered against the number of hits
achieved: 6 hits and a glitch would be a minor setback, while 1
hit and a glitch would be a severe annoyance.
(SR4 p 55)

With "dramatic" and "entertaining" being the key words, it places a lot of the responsibility on the GM to create events on the fly within those limitations. If the GM takes the stance that glitches are not meant to turn the PCs into bumbling idiots then the GM is free to set the blame on outside stimuli creating a mood of "the world against the runners" rather than the "runners against themselves."

It's all dependant upon your frame of reference.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mmu1
post Sep 11 2005, 04:21 AM
Post #7


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,070
Joined: 7-February 04
From: NYC
Member No.: 6,058



QUOTE (Autarkis @ Sep 10 2005, 09:59 PM)
Ooh! Witty one liners! Lot of substance in those.  :eek:

I salute you for that brave attempt at self-critcism...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Autarkis
post Sep 11 2005, 04:27 AM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 119
Joined: 17-August 05
Member No.: 7,566



My response had the same thought put into it as they put into theirs. 8)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mmu1
post Sep 11 2005, 04:29 AM
Post #9


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,070
Joined: 7-February 04
From: NYC
Member No.: 6,058



QUOTE (Sabosect)
Nope. In SR4, the runners are the street punks. If you want people who are a cut above the rest, you're playing the wrong version.

Really? Is that why it's possible to make starting characters with world-class levels of ability? (or higher, if they're heavily cybered or are adepts)

I think you're confusing "street level" with "street punk"...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mmu1
post Sep 11 2005, 04:29 AM
Post #10


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,070
Joined: 7-February 04
From: NYC
Member No.: 6,058



QUOTE (Autarkis @ Sep 11 2005, 12:27 AM)
My response had the same thought put into it as they put into theirs. 8)

Oh, look! DrJest just jumped off a bridge!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sabosect
post Sep 11 2005, 04:36 AM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 807
Joined: 9-October 04
Member No.: 6,741



QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 10 2005, 07:23 PM)
Nope. In SR4, the runners are the street punks. If you want people who are a cut above the rest, you're playing the wrong version.

Really? Is that why it's possible to make starting characters with world-class levels of ability? (or higher, if they're heavily cybered or are adepts)

I think you're confusing "street level" with "street punk"...

The best in the world has a 9 in the attribute, probably a 7 in the stat, and all of the gee-whiz ultra-expensive equipment to back it.

Can SR4 characters start out that way? Nope. Can they come close? Yep. But no closer than any other street punk.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mmu1
post Sep 11 2005, 05:18 AM
Post #12


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,070
Joined: 7-February 04
From: NYC
Member No.: 6,058



QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 11 2005, 12:36 AM)
The best in the world has a 9 in the attribute, probably a 7 in the stat, and all of the gee-whiz ultra-expensive equipment to back it.

Can SR4 characters start out that way? Nope. Can they come close? Yep. But no closer than any other street punk.

I suggest you ought to read what the SR4 rulebook defines as a world-class level of ability. (or elite/legendary, to be more precise)

If that doesn't help, let me lay it out: Someone with a professional level of skill, a specialization in that skill, and an average linked attribute has a die pool of eight. A runner with an ability of 5, skill of 5, specialization, and 2 measly extra points in an attribute from cyber has a die pool of fourteen. (and I intentionally went far out of my way not to min-max the runner, here)

You're welcome to insist that calling the runner a "street punk" makes sense despite the fact that the definitions laid down by the designers, the game mechanics, and the sample characters in the book all are in disagreement with your claims, but there are words for people who come up with their own reality that's different from everyone else's, and I don't think you're a journalist, which leaves one other...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crusher Bob
post Sep 11 2005, 05:35 AM
Post #13


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,598
Joined: 15-March 03
From: Hong Kong
Member No.: 4,253



Consider that a die pool of 14 represents someone with the absolute human maximum ability and a specialization in a skill.

Having both expceptional attribute and exceptional aptitude in a skill, and have both the time and resources to max both the skill in the stat have to be an exceedlingly rare occurance.

What I find most insulting is that it is trivial for an adept to beat the maximum conceavalbe human ability.

With 300 BP I was able to max an adept that had the maximum human possible in intimidate, negotiations, etiquette, and con and 'olympic class' leadership. And this adept still had plenty of room to grow his skills.

In SR3 when you see a character with, say, Leadership/political 8/12, you can point at him and say (and not feel too stupid about it) 'historians will compare this guy to Caesar, Churchill, and Lincoln".

In SR4, it's: historians will compare this guy to the dumpster diving social adept that lives down the block.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrostyNSO
post Sep 11 2005, 06:35 AM
Post #14


Resident Legionnaire
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,136
Joined: 8-August 04
From: Usually Work
Member No.: 6,550



QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
In SR3 when you see a character with, say, Leadership/political 8/12, you can point at him and say (and not feel too stupid about it) 'historians will compare this guy to Caesar, Churchill, and Lincoln".

In SR4, it's: historians will compare this guy to the dumpster diving social adept that lives down the block.

Holy sh*t I just shot my drink out my nose! :rotfl:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sabosect
post Sep 11 2005, 07:09 AM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 807
Joined: 9-October 04
Member No.: 6,741



QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 11 2005, 12:36 AM)
The best in the world has a 9 in the attribute, probably a 7 in the stat, and all of the gee-whiz ultra-expensive equipment to back it.

Can SR4 characters start out that way? Nope. Can they come close? Yep. But no closer than any other street punk.

I suggest you ought to read what the SR4 rulebook defines as a world-class level of ability. (or elite/legendary, to be more precise)

I read it. The typical starting troll surpasses it in some areas with ease. The numbers need revised, but they always did in every edition.

QUOTE
If that doesn't help, let me lay it out: Someone with a professional level of skill, a specialization in that skill, and an average linked attribute has a die pool of eight. A runner with an ability of 5, skill of 5, specialization, and 2 measly extra points in an attribute from cyber has a die pool of fourteen. (and I intentionally went far out of my way not to min-max the runner, here)


Professional skill doesn't mean as much unless you have professional equipment to back it. What separates the professionals from the amatures in the real world and SR4 is not just the level of skill, but the equipment used. Being able to shoot the left toe off a dwarf child's foot while chugging bear blindfolded in a suborbital (the child's on the street, of course) does not make you a professional sniper if you are using a pistol.

The hangup I see a lot of you having is the idea of skill. Well, so what? Yes, I have met people who are damned accurate with weapons, often to the point of military precision. Are all of them in the military? No. Some of them are just amatures who are extremely good.

QUOTE
You're welcome to insist that calling the runner a "street punk" makes sense despite the fact that the definitions laid down by the designers, the game mechanics, and the sample characters in the book all are in disagreement with your claims, but there are words for people who come up with their own reality that's different from everyone else's, and I don't think you're a journalist, which leaves one other...


Actually, I was using the definition of what shadowrunners are from the book, and it in essense labels them as common criminals. Just because the street punk is skilled doesn't mean he's not a street punk.

Next time you want to use definitions, make sure all of them agree with you. And if you really need a page number for that, feel free to check the index.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Adarael
post Sep 11 2005, 08:10 AM
Post #16


Deus Absconditus
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,742
Joined: 1-September 03
From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS
Member No.: 5,566



QUOTE
Being able to shoot the left toe off a dwarf child's foot while chugging bear blindfolded in a suborbital...


I have found it quite difficult to do anything while chugging bears. They claw and bite.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fistandantilus4....
post Sep 11 2005, 08:38 AM
Post #17


Uncle Fisty
**********

Group: Admin
Posts: 13,891
Joined: 3-January 05
From: Next To Her
Member No.: 6,928



but yet you still try. You should stop in to the drop bear thread. you would do well there valiant warrior. Chug on my son. Chug on.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Drop Bear Prime
post Sep 11 2005, 08:42 AM
Post #18


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 7
Joined: 9-September 05
From: Outback...of your house
Member No.: 7,722



Once you've had bear,
for no other you'll care!

:beret:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fistandantilus4....
post Sep 11 2005, 08:42 AM
Post #19


Uncle Fisty
**********

Group: Admin
Posts: 13,891
Joined: 3-January 05
From: Next To Her
Member No.: 6,928



The Chosen One hath returned
:spin: :rotate: :spin: :rotate:

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 11 2005, 09:21 AM
Post #20


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Sep 11 2005, 07:35 AM)
In SR3 when you see a character with, say, Leadership/political 8/12, you can point at him and say (and not feel too stupid about it) 'historians will compare this guy to Caesar, Churchill, and Lincoln".

In SR4, it's: historians will compare this guy to the dumpster diving social adept that lives down the block.

Do you even realize that it was perfectly legal for a starting Adept of SR3 to have Leadership 6(12)? As there was no Social Pool anymore, it didn't even matter that half of that was magic...
Whether he was King of the boardroom or king of gangland, he was king.

If you try comparing unaugmented skills and augmented ones, you will fail.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Sep 11 2005, 09:24 AM
Post #21


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Sep 11 2005, 12:35 AM)
Consider that a die pool of 14 represents someone with the absolute human maximum ability and a specialization in a skill.

Having both expceptional attribute and exceptional aptitude in a skill, and have both the time and resources to max both the skill in the stat have to be an exceedlingly rare occurance.

What I find most insulting is that it is trivial for an adept to beat the maximum conceavalbe human ability.

With 300 BP I was able to max an adept that had the maximum human possible in intimidate, negotiations, etiquette, and con and 'olympic class' leadership.  And this adept still had plenty of room to grow his skills.

In SR3 when you see a character with, say, Leadership/political 8/12, you can point at him and say (and not feel too stupid about it) 'historians will compare this guy to Caesar, Churchill, and Lincoln".

In SR4, it's: historians will compare this guy to the dumpster diving social adept that lives down the block.

Welcome to the sixth world, friend. Here be dragons, magic and wonderful things.

(And not so wonderful things, like nobodies with the social adepery of the great leaders of past day.)

If you were to compare a SR3 physical adept or street sam to historical fighters, what would you come up with then?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mmu1
post Sep 11 2005, 02:37 PM
Post #22


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,070
Joined: 7-February 04
From: NYC
Member No.: 6,058



QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 11 2005, 03:09 AM)
Actually, I was using the definition of what shadowrunners are from the book, and it in essense labels them as common criminals. Just because the street punk is skilled doesn't mean he's not a street punk.

Next time you want to use definitions, make sure all of them agree with you. And if you really need a page number for that, feel free to check the index.

That's funny - I've read the same book, and I see nothing there describing shadowrunners as "common".

In fact, sections like the Friends and Foes chapter describing what "primer runners" built with equal resources to the PCs are like make it crystal clear that - aside from what you may choose to call them, SR4 runners are clearly distinguished from "street punks" by their level of ability. (they're on the same level as government agents and company men)

So why don't you try again - this time, without claiming the book states something it doesn't, and without basing your argument on made-up "professional equipment". Red Samurai and Tir Ghosts - again, if you go by the book, instead of making shit up - use the same assault rifles and wired reflexes that a runner might have...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Spider
post Sep 11 2005, 06:15 PM
Post #23


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 46
Joined: 27-January 05
Member No.: 7,022



Maybe i didn't get the book right, but the SR4 system as a more street level feeling to it but the 400BP shadowrunner character are no street punk. If you take a look and compare any archetype with the sample character in friends and foes you will feel that the PC aren't street punks. My players look more like the red Samourai sample character than any other in that section. I don't think that any one of you is suggesting that the Red Samourai are street punks?

Not to hijack the tread i will point out that glitch aren't critical glitch. You're suggested to annoy your player on a glitch with some bad side effect. On a critical glitch you're suggested to really piss your player with dramatic effect. Now that's a difference. The frequency of critical glitch isn't so bad. I would never kill a character because he roll a 4 instead of a 5. Some glitch should just be minor annoyance, as in the quick draw example in the rule book. Now on a critical glitch, it's up to you...

Also, i'm pretty sure that since my player characters got many more dices than the average NPC. The opposition will glitch (and critical glitch) on more dramatic moment than they. When they will face prime runners... well, that's a different story.

-Spider
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 11 2005, 06:21 PM
Post #24


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Do you even realize that it was perfectly legal for a starting Adept of SR3 to have Leadership 6(12)? As there was no Social Pool anymore, it didn't even matter that half of that was magic...

That only became true after SotA:2064. It was a stupid idea then and hasn't gotten any less so.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 11 2005, 06:25 PM
Post #25


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



Yet it's canon for SR3... too bad.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 08:38 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.