Is it me or do glitches seem to pop up a whole helluva lot? Not overwhelmingly so, but more than you expect to happen to a skilled professional?
Here I was assuming shadowrunners were a cut above the average thug or street punk, and were usually hired because they were more reliable, deniable means to accomplish an objective. I guess it must just be my gaming style.
Sure, in real life there will be complications to any given situation, but more often than not, those are the result of the situation and not the operator's skills. This is just a little frustrating, and I was wondering if I am the only one who feels this way?
Full Version: Glitches
Nope. In SR4, the runners are the street punks. If you want people who are a cut above the rest, you're playing the wrong version.
Well, I wouldn't say I'll be playing it much longer 
(Not just because of the glitches, but for a host of other reasons...just to clarify, so people don't jump to conclusions)
(Not just because of the glitches, but for a host of other reasons...just to clarify, so people don't jump to conclusions)
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| Nope. In SR4, the runners are the street punks. If you want people who are a cut above the rest, you're playing the wrong version. |
And therein lies my biggest objection to the new edition...
Ooh! Witty one liners! Lot of substance in those. 
Here's the probability for getting a glitch (calculated here: SR Dice Roll Probability Calculator) :
Dice Rolled: % Chance of a glitch
1d: 16.67%
2d: 30.56%
3d: 7.41%
4d: 13.19%
5d: 3.55%
6d: 6.23%
7d: 1.76%
8d: 3.07%
9d: 0.90%
10d: 1.55%
11d: 0.46%
12d: 0.79%
This is used if it's half the dice (round up) roll 1s.
If it's half the dice (round down):
Dice Rolled: % Chance of a glitch
1d: 16.67%
2d: 30.56%
3d: 42.13%
4d: 13.19%
5d: 19.62%
6d: 6.23%
7d: 9.58%
8d: 3.07%
9d: 4.80%
10d: 1.55%
11d: 2.45%
12d: 0.79%
Both ways have their problems, where rounding up generally makes those rolling an odd number of dice less likely to roll a glitch than someone rolling one more die. Rounding down causes the opposite, where a person rolling an even number of dice is less likely to roll a glitch than someone rolling 1 die more.
Either way, an average person with a professional rating in their skill (3 + 3) will roll a glitch about 6% of the time. If they are specialized in that skill (3 + 3 + 2) they will reduce the probability by (approx.) half (3.07%).
Dice Rolled: % Chance of a glitch
1d: 16.67%
2d: 30.56%
3d: 7.41%
4d: 13.19%
5d: 3.55%
6d: 6.23%
7d: 1.76%
8d: 3.07%
9d: 0.90%
10d: 1.55%
11d: 0.46%
12d: 0.79%
This is used if it's half the dice (round up) roll 1s.
If it's half the dice (round down):
Dice Rolled: % Chance of a glitch
1d: 16.67%
2d: 30.56%
3d: 42.13%
4d: 13.19%
5d: 19.62%
6d: 6.23%
7d: 9.58%
8d: 3.07%
9d: 4.80%
10d: 1.55%
11d: 2.45%
12d: 0.79%
Both ways have their problems, where rounding up generally makes those rolling an odd number of dice less likely to roll a glitch than someone rolling one more die. Rounding down causes the opposite, where a person rolling an even number of dice is less likely to roll a glitch than someone rolling 1 die more.
Either way, an average person with a professional rating in their skill (3 + 3) will roll a glitch about 6% of the time. If they are specialized in that skill (3 + 3 + 2) they will reduce the probability by (approx.) half (3.07%).
| QUOTE |
| The exact nature of the glitch is up to the gamemaster, though we recommend you choose a negative effect that is dramatic or entertaining, but not disastrous. The nature of the glitch can be tempered against the number of hits achieved: 6 hits and a glitch would be a minor setback, while 1 hit and a glitch would be a severe annoyance. |
(SR4 p 55)
With "dramatic" and "entertaining" being the key words, it places a lot of the responsibility on the GM to create events on the fly within those limitations. If the GM takes the stance that glitches are not meant to turn the PCs into bumbling idiots then the GM is free to set the blame on outside stimuli creating a mood of "the world against the runners" rather than the "runners against themselves."
It's all dependant upon your frame of reference.
With "dramatic" and "entertaining" being the key words, it places a lot of the responsibility on the GM to create events on the fly within those limitations. If the GM takes the stance that glitches are not meant to turn the PCs into bumbling idiots then the GM is free to set the blame on outside stimuli creating a mood of "the world against the runners" rather than the "runners against themselves."
It's all dependant upon your frame of reference.
| QUOTE (Autarkis @ Sep 10 2005, 09:59 PM) |
| Ooh! Witty one liners! Lot of substance in those. |
I salute you for that brave attempt at self-critcism...
My response had the same thought put into it as they put into theirs. 
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| Nope. In SR4, the runners are the street punks. If you want people who are a cut above the rest, you're playing the wrong version. |
Really? Is that why it's possible to make starting characters with world-class levels of ability? (or higher, if they're heavily cybered or are adepts)
I think you're confusing "street level" with "street punk"...
| QUOTE (Autarkis @ Sep 11 2005, 12:27 AM) |
| My response had the same thought put into it as they put into theirs. |
Oh, look! DrJest just jumped off a bridge!
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
Really? Is that why it's possible to make starting characters with world-class levels of ability? (or higher, if they're heavily cybered or are adepts) I think you're confusing "street level" with "street punk"... |
The best in the world has a 9 in the attribute, probably a 7 in the stat, and all of the gee-whiz ultra-expensive equipment to back it.
Can SR4 characters start out that way? Nope. Can they come close? Yep. But no closer than any other street punk.
| QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 11 2005, 12:36 AM) |
| The best in the world has a 9 in the attribute, probably a 7 in the stat, and all of the gee-whiz ultra-expensive equipment to back it. Can SR4 characters start out that way? Nope. Can they come close? Yep. But no closer than any other street punk. |
I suggest you ought to read what the SR4 rulebook defines as a world-class level of ability. (or elite/legendary, to be more precise)
If that doesn't help, let me lay it out: Someone with a professional level of skill, a specialization in that skill, and an average linked attribute has a die pool of eight. A runner with an ability of 5, skill of 5, specialization, and 2 measly extra points in an attribute from cyber has a die pool of fourteen. (and I intentionally went far out of my way not to min-max the runner, here)
You're welcome to insist that calling the runner a "street punk" makes sense despite the fact that the definitions laid down by the designers, the game mechanics, and the sample characters in the book all are in disagreement with your claims, but there are words for people who come up with their own reality that's different from everyone else's, and I don't think you're a journalist, which leaves one other...
Consider that a die pool of 14 represents someone with the absolute human maximum ability and a specialization in a skill.
Having both expceptional attribute and exceptional aptitude in a skill, and have both the time and resources to max both the skill in the stat have to be an exceedlingly rare occurance.
What I find most insulting is that it is trivial for an adept to beat the maximum conceavalbe human ability.
With 300 BP I was able to max an adept that had the maximum human possible in intimidate, negotiations, etiquette, and con and 'olympic class' leadership. And this adept still had plenty of room to grow his skills.
In SR3 when you see a character with, say, Leadership/political 8/12, you can point at him and say (and not feel too stupid about it) 'historians will compare this guy to Caesar, Churchill, and Lincoln".
In SR4, it's: historians will compare this guy to the dumpster diving social adept that lives down the block.
Having both expceptional attribute and exceptional aptitude in a skill, and have both the time and resources to max both the skill in the stat have to be an exceedlingly rare occurance.
What I find most insulting is that it is trivial for an adept to beat the maximum conceavalbe human ability.
With 300 BP I was able to max an adept that had the maximum human possible in intimidate, negotiations, etiquette, and con and 'olympic class' leadership. And this adept still had plenty of room to grow his skills.
In SR3 when you see a character with, say, Leadership/political 8/12, you can point at him and say (and not feel too stupid about it) 'historians will compare this guy to Caesar, Churchill, and Lincoln".
In SR4, it's: historians will compare this guy to the dumpster diving social adept that lives down the block.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| In SR3 when you see a character with, say, Leadership/political 8/12, you can point at him and say (and not feel too stupid about it) 'historians will compare this guy to Caesar, Churchill, and Lincoln". In SR4, it's: historians will compare this guy to the dumpster diving social adept that lives down the block. |
Holy sh*t I just shot my drink out my nose!
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
I suggest you ought to read what the SR4 rulebook defines as a world-class level of ability. (or elite/legendary, to be more precise) |
I read it. The typical starting troll surpasses it in some areas with ease. The numbers need revised, but they always did in every edition.
| QUOTE |
| If that doesn't help, let me lay it out: Someone with a professional level of skill, a specialization in that skill, and an average linked attribute has a die pool of eight. A runner with an ability of 5, skill of 5, specialization, and 2 measly extra points in an attribute from cyber has a die pool of fourteen. (and I intentionally went far out of my way not to min-max the runner, here) |
Professional skill doesn't mean as much unless you have professional equipment to back it. What separates the professionals from the amatures in the real world and SR4 is not just the level of skill, but the equipment used. Being able to shoot the left toe off a dwarf child's foot while chugging bear blindfolded in a suborbital (the child's on the street, of course) does not make you a professional sniper if you are using a pistol.
The hangup I see a lot of you having is the idea of skill. Well, so what? Yes, I have met people who are damned accurate with weapons, often to the point of military precision. Are all of them in the military? No. Some of them are just amatures who are extremely good.
| QUOTE |
| You're welcome to insist that calling the runner a "street punk" makes sense despite the fact that the definitions laid down by the designers, the game mechanics, and the sample characters in the book all are in disagreement with your claims, but there are words for people who come up with their own reality that's different from everyone else's, and I don't think you're a journalist, which leaves one other... |
Actually, I was using the definition of what shadowrunners are from the book, and it in essense labels them as common criminals. Just because the street punk is skilled doesn't mean he's not a street punk.
Next time you want to use definitions, make sure all of them agree with you. And if you really need a page number for that, feel free to check the index.
| QUOTE |
| Being able to shoot the left toe off a dwarf child's foot while chugging bear blindfolded in a suborbital... |
I have found it quite difficult to do anything while chugging bears. They claw and bite.
but yet you still try. You should stop in to the drop bear thread. you would do well there valiant warrior. Chug on my son. Chug on.
Once you've had bear,
for no other you'll care!
for no other you'll care!
The Chosen One hath returned
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Sep 11 2005, 07:35 AM) |
| In SR3 when you see a character with, say, Leadership/political 8/12, you can point at him and say (and not feel too stupid about it) 'historians will compare this guy to Caesar, Churchill, and Lincoln". In SR4, it's: historians will compare this guy to the dumpster diving social adept that lives down the block. |
Do you even realize that it was perfectly legal for a starting Adept of SR3 to have Leadership 6(12)? As there was no Social Pool anymore, it didn't even matter that half of that was magic...
Whether he was King of the boardroom or king of gangland, he was king.
If you try comparing unaugmented skills and augmented ones, you will fail.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Sep 11 2005, 12:35 AM) |
| Consider that a die pool of 14 represents someone with the absolute human maximum ability and a specialization in a skill. Having both expceptional attribute and exceptional aptitude in a skill, and have both the time and resources to max both the skill in the stat have to be an exceedlingly rare occurance. What I find most insulting is that it is trivial for an adept to beat the maximum conceavalbe human ability. With 300 BP I was able to max an adept that had the maximum human possible in intimidate, negotiations, etiquette, and con and 'olympic class' leadership. And this adept still had plenty of room to grow his skills. In SR3 when you see a character with, say, Leadership/political 8/12, you can point at him and say (and not feel too stupid about it) 'historians will compare this guy to Caesar, Churchill, and Lincoln". In SR4, it's: historians will compare this guy to the dumpster diving social adept that lives down the block. |
Welcome to the sixth world, friend. Here be dragons, magic and wonderful things.
(And not so wonderful things, like nobodies with the social adepery of the great leaders of past day.)
If you were to compare a SR3 physical adept or street sam to historical fighters, what would you come up with then?
| QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 11 2005, 03:09 AM) |
| Actually, I was using the definition of what shadowrunners are from the book, and it in essense labels them as common criminals. Just because the street punk is skilled doesn't mean he's not a street punk. Next time you want to use definitions, make sure all of them agree with you. And if you really need a page number for that, feel free to check the index. |
That's funny - I've read the same book, and I see nothing there describing shadowrunners as "common".
In fact, sections like the Friends and Foes chapter describing what "primer runners" built with equal resources to the PCs are like make it crystal clear that - aside from what you may choose to call them, SR4 runners are clearly distinguished from "street punks" by their level of ability. (they're on the same level as government agents and company men)
So why don't you try again - this time, without claiming the book states something it doesn't, and without basing your argument on made-up "professional equipment". Red Samurai and Tir Ghosts - again, if you go by the book, instead of making shit up - use the same assault rifles and wired reflexes that a runner might have...
Maybe i didn't get the book right, but the SR4 system as a more street level feeling to it but the 400BP shadowrunner character are no street punk. If you take a look and compare any archetype with the sample character in friends and foes you will feel that the PC aren't street punks. My players look more like the red Samourai sample character than any other in that section. I don't think that any one of you is suggesting that the Red Samourai are street punks?
Not to hijack the tread i will point out that glitch aren't critical glitch. You're suggested to annoy your player on a glitch with some bad side effect. On a critical glitch you're suggested to really piss your player with dramatic effect. Now that's a difference. The frequency of critical glitch isn't so bad. I would never kill a character because he roll a 4 instead of a 5. Some glitch should just be minor annoyance, as in the quick draw example in the rule book. Now on a critical glitch, it's up to you...
Also, i'm pretty sure that since my player characters got many more dices than the average NPC. The opposition will glitch (and critical glitch) on more dramatic moment than they. When they will face prime runners... well, that's a different story.
-Spider
Not to hijack the tread i will point out that glitch aren't critical glitch. You're suggested to annoy your player on a glitch with some bad side effect. On a critical glitch you're suggested to really piss your player with dramatic effect. Now that's a difference. The frequency of critical glitch isn't so bad. I would never kill a character because he roll a 4 instead of a 5. Some glitch should just be minor annoyance, as in the quick draw example in the rule book. Now on a critical glitch, it's up to you...
Also, i'm pretty sure that since my player characters got many more dices than the average NPC. The opposition will glitch (and critical glitch) on more dramatic moment than they. When they will face prime runners... well, that's a different story.
-Spider
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Do you even realize that it was perfectly legal for a starting Adept of SR3 to have Leadership 6(12)? As there was no Social Pool anymore, it didn't even matter that half of that was magic... |
That only became true after SotA:2064. It was a stupid idea then and hasn't gotten any less so.
~J
Yet it's canon for SR3... too bad.
No, not too bad. Not remotely too bad. In SR3 it was in an advanced supplement, and was still less unbalancing (in that it didn't rocket you past a hard limit).
The fact that the SR4 designers started fucking up before SR4 proper doesn't make SR4 not broken.
~J
The fact that the SR4 designers started fucking up before SR4 proper doesn't make SR4 not broken.
~J
Yes, it was just able to double your dice, and rocketed you with linear costs over progressive ones...
I advise you reread the initiation rules, as well as the rules that state that IA cannot add dice past the level of the base skill.
It was an advantage, and too much of one in my opinion, but both costs were progressive.
~J
It was an advantage, and too much of one in my opinion, but both costs were progressive.
~J
Then you may like the advice to reread the rules for powerpoints then... those not made obsolete by initation...
After some grades, it's just cheaper to buy points, and that's where it gets back to linear.
As for 'limited by skill' uhm, well... this allows to double dice in a skill with no pools, doesn't it?
So much more better than to add 50% max of a skill like in SR4... considering the reward is less than 50% as the number of dice depends on attribute, too.
After some grades, it's just cheaper to buy points, and that's where it gets back to linear.
As for 'limited by skill' uhm, well... this allows to double dice in a skill with no pools, doesn't it?
So much more better than to add 50% max of a skill like in SR4... considering the reward is less than 50% as the number of dice depends on attribute, too.
Put it this way: I take an Elf adept, give them five points of the attribute (before bonus), five points of the skill, and five points of Improved Ability. I have just guaranteed that no one non-magical will ever match my ability. Ever.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 11 2005, 10:27 PM) |
| I have just guaranteed that no one non-magical will ever match my ability. |
Uh, yeah - how suprising:
'No Magic' can't be the same as 'Magic'.
Just, your math is off, too:
As the bonus of IA is capped, too, this would result in 12 Dice, not in 15.
Then change to 6-6-3 instead.
~J
~J
so the basic problem of SR remains. magic outperforming mundanes.
only now its become even more so as mundanes are hard caped
only now its become even more so as mundanes are hard caped
Am I the only person who thinks the cybered and magically active should be able to outperform mundane, 5th world types without too much trouble?
Recognize that 6/6/3 for a starting adept is saying, "This gentleman is one of the finest negotiators IN THE WORLD, without the magic."
The magic is just the oomph that makes him... welll... magical, in terms of ability.
If you deliberatly stack a PC out to be one of the best possible people at his job, and then give him magic, don't complain when he's better than the equivalent non-magical people.
Recognize that 6/6/3 for a starting adept is saying, "This gentleman is one of the finest negotiators IN THE WORLD, without the magic."
The magic is just the oomph that makes him... welll... magical, in terms of ability.
If you deliberatly stack a PC out to be one of the best possible people at his job, and then give him magic, don't complain when he's better than the equivalent non-magical people.
You know, I don't think I've ever seen a thread where someone said, "Hey, my elven katana-wielding fanboy anti-hero could, with his eyes closed, probably tear Miyamoto Musashi a new one. And I know for a fact that there's at least five other elven katana-wielding fanboy anti-heros within a just a few blocks of here."
...just strikes me as kinda funny...
...just strikes me as kinda funny...
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| Am I the only person who thinks the cybered and magically active should be able to outperform mundane, 5th world types without too much trouble? |
No, I think that as well.
Now move the cybered folk from the former category and into the latter. That's where I start having a problem with it.
~J
It's difficult to prevent the magic chars to outmatch the mundanes (=non-magic) chars.
Concider that by SR4 rules, the legendary mundanes propably have one hell of an edge...
| QUOTE (mintcar) |
| Concider that by SR4 rules, the legendary mundanes propably have one hell of an edge... |
Indeed. I had a character max out edge at 7 for a human for a one-shot game and he ruled all. Having 7 dice to add to a test 7 times certainly made him the star of the show when he wanted to be.
| QUOTE (Grinder) |
| It's difficult to prevent the magic chars to outmatch the mundanes (=non-magic) chars. |
and the reason for that is that while cybered ones run out of essence fast, magicaly powerd people can just initiate into virtual infinity
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| That's funny - I've read the same book, and I see nothing there describing shadowrunners as "common". |
Okay, mmu, you should feel bad that I'm about to as this. Where did you get the idea the words "in essense" translate to "it actually says"? And, please, tell me there is an English teacher out there who really understands the language that little. I would so enjoy this not being entirely you.
| QUOTE |
| In fact, sections like the Friends and Foes chapter describing what "primer runners" built with equal resources to the PCs are like make it crystal clear that - aside from what you may choose to call them, SR4 runners are clearly distinguished from "street punks" by their level of ability. (they're on the same level as government agents and company men) |
Government agents and company men range from "Joe Blow with a job" to "James Bond would be jealous", so you need to clarify that further to have a point.
| QUOTE |
| So why don't you try again - this time, without claiming the book states something it doesn't, and without basing your argument on made-up "professional equipment". Red Samurai and Tir Ghosts - again, if you go by the book, instead of making shit up - use the same assault rifles and wired reflexes that a runner might have... |
And, if you bother to pay attention to certain points of reality or common sense, you would realize "equipment" also includes uniforms and other such mundane items. Oh, wait, I forgot: Uniforms are "made-up 'professional equipment'" in your book. Wait, does that also include badges? Let's check... Yep.
Mmu, here's your clue. Use it well.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| Where did you get the idea the words "in essense" translate to "it actually says"? |
| QUOTE (answers.com) |
| in essence Basically, by nature, as in He is in essence a very private person or In essence, they were asking the wrong question. This term employs essence in the sense of “intrinsic nature,” a usage dating from the mid-1600s. |
Perhaps there is another "intrinsic nature" to words that I am unaware of? I see nothing supporting your claim in either text or subtext.
Quote some sections, then you'll be worth talking to.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||||
Perhaps there is another "intrinsic nature" to words that I am unaware of? I see nothing supporting your claim in either text or subtext. Quote some sections, then you'll be worth talking to. ~J |
First, the definition (I keep spelling the word wrong):
Main Entry: es·sence
Pronunciation: 'e-s&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin essentia, from esse to be -- more at IS
1 a : the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being b : the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence c : the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is
2 : something that exists : ENTITY
3 a (1) : a volatile substance or constituent (as of perfume) (2) : a constituent or derivative possessing the special qualities (as of a plant or drug) in concentrated form; also : a preparation of such an essence or a synthetic substitute b : ODOR, PERFUME
4 : one that possesses or exhibits a quality in abundance as if in concentrated form <she was the essence of punctuality>
- in essence : in or by its very nature : ESSENTIALLY, BASICALLY <was in essence an honest person>
- of the essence : of the utmost importance <time is of the essence>
Now, the passages? You'll have to excuse me for not quoting, as right now I do not feel like copying and pasting that much information. But, I will give you chapters, sections, and page numbers.
What Runners Do, page 17
Life on the Edge, pages 35 through 50
Sample Charactets, pages 89 through 104
Reputation, pages 257 and 258
Grunts, pages 272 through 275
Finally, there's the attribute costs and the skill limitations. All of those, combined, are what gave me the sense these people are intended to be closer to common criminals than elite forces. And, yes, I realize some of that does contradict this, but the overall feeling doesn't change and those portions that do seem to me more like a way of trying to assuage those of us who play higher powered campaigns than true attempts at making the runners seem like more than street punks. Okay, they're street punks with skill. But that doesn't change the impression I got from those sections. My impression may be wrong, but it's my impression from what I saw.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| Okay, mmu, you should feel bad that I'm about to as this. Where did you get the idea the words "in essense" translate to "it actually says"? And, please, tell me there is an English teacher out there who really understands the language that little. I would so enjoy this not being entirely you. |
Don't worry, your writing skills are so bad there's no danger of anyone taking your criticism seriously.
"No, you're wrong, because what I wrote isn't actually what I meant" might inspire pity, but that's about it.
Please continue with this argument, it'll be entertaining to watch you explain how "professional equipment" like uniforms and badges is what makes the difference between street punks and pros.
Or, again, you could try to go beyond the surface and stop arguing semantics, but I guess you can't do that because it's all you've got going for you.
Well, basicly he's right - sometimes, the difference between runners and elite forces is just fancy uniforms and badges.
and they all die with a strike from the orbital cow launcher 
Couple real good examples of personal insults going on here. Keep it friendly.
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| Don't worry, your writing skills are so bad there's no danger of anyone taking your criticism seriously. "No, you're wrong, because what I wrote isn't actually what I meant" might inspire pity, but that's about it. Please continue with this argument, it'll be entertaining to watch you explain how "professional equipment" like uniforms and badges is what makes the difference between street punks and pros. Or, again, you could try to go beyond the surface and stop arguing semantics, but I guess you can't do that because it's all you've got going for you. |
Okay, Mmu, you seem to want to argue using the position I normally play. I'm perfectly fine with that. It is not often I get to switch roles with somebody. So, yes, I am stepping out of my chosen role on these boards to lay the smackdown on you. But, first, a few criticisms:
1) That position is best done while being nice. It makes people mostly smile disdainfully before going ahead and ripping apart your points. Besides, if you're going to play the side you know mostly loses, you can at least be decent about wasting everyone's time.
2) Never criticise writing skills that quickly. Typically, the reason why is because part of your toolset is incomplete logic and jumping to conclusions.
3) Have a purpose behind what you are doing. In my case, it's sometimes to present arguments I wish defeated (yes, I am that lazy) I have seen on other sites. In other cases, it is simply the joy of having the underdog fight it out, whether they win or lose. It sounds manipulative, but the objective is never to manipulate those around you, but simply take a position most people prefer not to fill. Besides, it's sometimes fun to be the underdog.
4) When trying to take over a position, make it a point to make sure to watch for who already occupies it and check to see if they are willing to give it up. Personally, just for a refreshing change of pace, I'm willing to vacate it temporarily. But, that does not mean you may fill my void permanently. I worked hard on that position, I have the greater experience with it between the two of us, and I will fight to keep it.
Now, to address your arguments.
1. Professional skill = professionals.
False. Professional skill without the proper equipment, which does include uniforms and badges, merely equals skilled amature. You want an example? Try my father. He knows the inner workings of any car made from 1950 to 1990 better than the back of his hand, and has the equipment to work on almost all of them. Is he a professional mechanic? No. He's an amature who knows this much about cars because a lack of money forced him to. In the shadowrun world, he's probably equivolent to a 4 or 5 in the B/R skill for cars, and definitely a 6 when it comes to those older vehicles. His experience is equivolent to the professional level, but it does not make him a professional.
Now, my point? You are making the mistake of the idea that equivolencies must be realities. The dice rating system is to give you an idea of what the number is equivolent to. It does not mean that just because they have that level of skill or knowledge that they actually are what the rating says. What you seem to think is that the skill is exactly what it says, which comes from either bad wording in the book or simply failed logic.
Now, can a person get a professional level of familiarity with weapon types? Yes. The person who lives in the house nearest where I grew up uses a shotgun with a skill unmatched by any I have seen, including that of military personel trained with the weapon. She's probably the only person in the U.S. I can see honestly expecting a headshot and getting her expectations fulfilled using that weapon. How did she get that level of skill? She trains with it every day, day in and day out. She has no military training, no professional training, and had no one to teach her. As a gun person, she's pretty much an amature. But just because she's an amature doesn't mean she won't splatter your brains against the wall if you break into her house.
Just because a person has a skill equal to that of professionals does not make them professionals. It does not even mean they have professional training. What it does mean is that, either through recreational experience or necessary experience, they gained the skill level through repeated practice.
2) Well, they use the same weapons as the professionals!
And I can go buy a civilian version of the M16 and, using the right manual and parts bought illegally, convert it to operating like the soldier version. Or, I can go to the black market and buy a military version of it or most military rifles available today.
Really, common sense is the issue here. Weapons? With the right contacts today, I can buy enough guns to equip a small army and never leave the city I'm in. And if my contacts are golden, that equipment can be amazing in quality and how recent it was made. There are a few guns you can't get yet, but give it a year and that will likely change.
What you can't get is the necessary uniforms, badges, and clearance backup that is legit for you to actually be a professional. And without those, an amature is all you will ever be.
3) Well, the contact list suggests...
Okay, stop right there. At this point, the realm of realism has been exchanged for a DnD-style fantasy land.
The contacts list represents people you have met during your criminal career who you go to on a regular basis for shady dealings. Your average street punk today will, if they are smart, have at least two, and many who have been on the streets for years will make it a point to either be constantly on the move or have a whole list of people they can rely on for various purposes. And that's today.
Should your average runner have more contacts than Joe Blow? Yes. But that's because they are criminals, not because they are honest citizens. The honest citizen shouldn't have all of those contacts because they don't need them in most cases. The average runner needs contacts in order to survive in the criminal world. Within the scope of human experience, the personal cannot learn to do everything themselves and must at some point rely on others for something, even if the others are not aware they are being relied on. In the case of the SR world, it assumes the criminals are going to have stable homes and areas they frequent, which means the people providing for them are people they have to deal with often and must be nice to. If you need me to back this up with evidence, then I must begin to question your experience with the game, as it is readily apparent in at least SR3 and SR4, as well as probably apparent in SRs 1 and 2.
Now, I would continue, but at this point I don't need to. A lot of this is simple common sense combined with actually paying attention to the world around me. If you want to continue, let me know.
Correct me if I'm wrong.. but:
| QUOTE ("dictionary.com") |
pro·fes·sion·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl) adj. 1. 1. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people. 2. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior. 2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer. 3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football. 4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job. |
Doesn't that mean that either Shadowrunners are professionals: Their livelihood is based on shadowrunning or not: Shadowrunning is not a profession.
It does not appear to have ANYTHING to do with gear and equipment other than nominally -- you need to have the appropriate tools. Can't be a professional technician without the tools. Can be in a pink tutu if you want though.
| QUOTE |
| 1. Professional skill = professionals. False. Professional skill without the proper equipment, which does include uniforms and badges, merely equals skilled amature. You want an example? Try my father. He knows the inner workings of any car made from 1950 to 1990 better than the back of his hand, and has the equipment to work on almost all of them. Is he a professional mechanic? No. He's an amature who knows this much about cars because a lack of money forced him to. In the shadowrun world, he's probably equivalent to a 4 or 5 in the B/R skill for cars, and definitely a 6 when it comes to those older vehicles. His experience is equivalent to the professional level, but it does not make him a professional. |
Huh?Okay, lemme see if I am following you. I'm a level 6 computer guy. Which is considered what, a 'Skilled Professional' in the book? Which means that I'm only a skilled professional if I have a computer? So my Skilled professional goes camping, takes no computer with him, and sometime during the driver he becomes a skilled amature? And so while he and his other level 6 computer co-workers are sitting around the fire, the can no longer discuss the intricate inner workings of their latest Programming project??
That makes no sense. Help me out here. Sure, a skilled professional with no equipment is pretty useless. Your Shotgun toting neighbor without a shot gun isn't splattering anyones brains, but she can still do it.
Equipment makes it possible to do those things, and in some cases improve your skill - Scopes, smartgun links, programming suites, etc. But you don't revert from 'Skilled Professional' to 'Skilled amature' because you don't have your tools handy.
"Crap I'm a bad ass race car driver, but I don't have my car. Still have the skill, just can't do it."
And you father? You do him great injustice by calling him an amature if he has that level of skill with older cars. If you want to relate this to SR, and you made your father as a char today, yeah, give him Mechanics, with a spec in older models. If you made him 25 years ago, he'd just have mechanics, and his skill with newer models would improve as he went along.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say....
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