 Glitches, Shadowrunners are bumbling dumb-@$$es |
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 Sep 11 2005, 07:57 PM
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#26
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
No, not too bad. Not remotely too bad. In SR3 it was in an advanced supplement, and was still less unbalancing (in that it didn't rocket you past a hard limit).
The fact that the SR4 designers started fucking up before SR4 proper doesn't make SR4 not broken. ~J |
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Sep 11 2005, 08:00 PM
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#27
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yes, it was just able to double your dice, and rocketed you with linear costs over progressive ones...
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Sep 11 2005, 08:04 PM
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#28
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I advise you reread the initiation rules, as well as the rules that state that IA cannot add dice past the level of the base skill.
It was an advantage, and too much of one in my opinion, but both costs were progressive. ~J |
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Sep 11 2005, 08:14 PM
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#29
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Then you may like the advice to reread the rules for powerpoints then... those not made obsolete by initation...
After some grades, it's just cheaper to buy points, and that's where it gets back to linear. As for 'limited by skill' uhm, well... this allows to double dice in a skill with no pools, doesn't it? So much more better than to add 50% max of a skill like in SR4... considering the reward is less than 50% as the number of dice depends on attribute, too. |
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Sep 11 2005, 08:27 PM
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#30
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Put it this way: I take an Elf adept, give them five points of the attribute (before bonus), five points of the skill, and five points of Improved Ability. I have just guaranteed that no one non-magical will ever match my ability. Ever.
~J |
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Sep 11 2005, 08:29 PM
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#31
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Uh, yeah - how suprising: 'No Magic' can't be the same as 'Magic'. Just, your math is off, too: As the bonus of IA is capped, too, this would result in 12 Dice, not in 15. |
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Sep 11 2005, 08:33 PM
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#32
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Then change to 6-6-3 instead.
~J |
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Sep 11 2005, 08:35 PM
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#33
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
so the basic problem of SR remains. magic outperforming mundanes.
only now its become even more so as mundanes are hard caped :P |
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Sep 11 2005, 09:46 PM
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#34
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Am I the only person who thinks the cybered and magically active should be able to outperform mundane, 5th world types without too much trouble?
Recognize that 6/6/3 for a starting adept is saying, "This gentleman is one of the finest negotiators IN THE WORLD, without the magic." The magic is just the oomph that makes him... welll... magical, in terms of ability. If you deliberatly stack a PC out to be one of the best possible people at his job, and then give him magic, don't complain when he's better than the equivalent non-magical people. |
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Sep 11 2005, 09:54 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 29-August 03 Member No.: 5,553 |
You know, I don't think I've ever seen a thread where someone said, "Hey, my elven katana-wielding fanboy anti-hero could, with his eyes closed, probably tear Miyamoto Musashi a new one. And I know for a fact that there's at least five other elven katana-wielding fanboy anti-heros within a just a few blocks of here."
...just strikes me as kinda funny... |
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Sep 11 2005, 10:02 PM
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#36
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, I think that as well. Now move the cybered folk from the former category and into the latter. That's where I start having a problem with it. ~J |
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Sep 11 2005, 10:04 PM
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#37
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
It's difficult to prevent the magic chars to outmatch the mundanes (=non-magic) chars.
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Sep 11 2005, 10:34 PM
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#38
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Concider that by SR4 rules, the legendary mundanes propably have one hell of an edge...
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Sep 11 2005, 11:15 PM
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#39
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Indeed. I had a character max out edge at 7 for a human for a one-shot game and he ruled all. Having 7 dice to add to a test 7 times certainly made him the star of the show when he wanted to be. |
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Sep 12 2005, 01:03 AM
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#40
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and the reason for that is that while cybered ones run out of essence fast, magicaly powerd people can just initiate into virtual infinity 8) |
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Sep 12 2005, 06:36 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Okay, mmu, you should feel bad that I'm about to as this. Where did you get the idea the words "in essense" translate to "it actually says"? And, please, tell me there is an English teacher out there who really understands the language that little. I would so enjoy this not being entirely you.
Government agents and company men range from "Joe Blow with a job" to "James Bond would be jealous", so you need to clarify that further to have a point.
And, if you bother to pay attention to certain points of reality or common sense, you would realize "equipment" also includes uniforms and other such mundane items. Oh, wait, I forgot: Uniforms are "made-up 'professional equipment'" in your book. Wait, does that also include badges? Let's check... Yep. Mmu, here's your clue. Use it well. |
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Sep 12 2005, 06:41 AM
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#42
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Perhaps there is another "intrinsic nature" to words that I am unaware of? I see nothing supporting your claim in either text or subtext. Quote some sections, then you'll be worth talking to. ~J |
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Sep 12 2005, 06:57 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
First, the definition (I keep spelling the word wrong): Main Entry: es·sence Pronunciation: 'e-s&n(t)s Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin essentia, from esse to be -- more at IS 1 a : the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being b : the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence c : the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is 2 : something that exists : ENTITY 3 a (1) : a volatile substance or constituent (as of perfume) (2) : a constituent or derivative possessing the special qualities (as of a plant or drug) in concentrated form; also : a preparation of such an essence or a synthetic substitute b : ODOR, PERFUME 4 : one that possesses or exhibits a quality in abundance as if in concentrated form <she was the essence of punctuality> - in essence : in or by its very nature : ESSENTIALLY, BASICALLY <was in essence an honest person> - of the essence : of the utmost importance <time is of the essence> Now, the passages? You'll have to excuse me for not quoting, as right now I do not feel like copying and pasting that much information. But, I will give you chapters, sections, and page numbers. What Runners Do, page 17 Life on the Edge, pages 35 through 50 Sample Charactets, pages 89 through 104 Reputation, pages 257 and 258 Grunts, pages 272 through 275 Finally, there's the attribute costs and the skill limitations. All of those, combined, are what gave me the sense these people are intended to be closer to common criminals than elite forces. And, yes, I realize some of that does contradict this, but the overall feeling doesn't change and those portions that do seem to me more like a way of trying to assuage those of us who play higher powered campaigns than true attempts at making the runners seem like more than street punks. Okay, they're street punks with skill. But that doesn't change the impression I got from those sections. My impression may be wrong, but it's my impression from what I saw. |
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Sep 12 2005, 12:37 PM
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#44
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Don't worry, your writing skills are so bad there's no danger of anyone taking your criticism seriously. "No, you're wrong, because what I wrote isn't actually what I meant" might inspire pity, but that's about it. Please continue with this argument, it'll be entertaining to watch you explain how "professional equipment" like uniforms and badges is what makes the difference between street punks and pros. Or, again, you could try to go beyond the surface and stop arguing semantics, but I guess you can't do that because it's all you've got going for you. |
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Sep 12 2005, 12:41 PM
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#45
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, basicly he's right - sometimes, the difference between runners and elite forces is just fancy uniforms and badges. ;)
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Sep 12 2005, 12:42 PM
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#46
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and they all die with a strike from the orbital cow launcher :silly:
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Sep 12 2005, 01:24 PM
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#47
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Couple real good examples of personal insults going on here. Keep it friendly.
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Sep 12 2005, 04:52 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Okay, Mmu, you seem to want to argue using the position I normally play. I'm perfectly fine with that. It is not often I get to switch roles with somebody. So, yes, I am stepping out of my chosen role on these boards to lay the smackdown on you. But, first, a few criticisms: 1) That position is best done while being nice. It makes people mostly smile disdainfully before going ahead and ripping apart your points. Besides, if you're going to play the side you know mostly loses, you can at least be decent about wasting everyone's time. 2) Never criticise writing skills that quickly. Typically, the reason why is because part of your toolset is incomplete logic and jumping to conclusions. 3) Have a purpose behind what you are doing. In my case, it's sometimes to present arguments I wish defeated (yes, I am that lazy) I have seen on other sites. In other cases, it is simply the joy of having the underdog fight it out, whether they win or lose. It sounds manipulative, but the objective is never to manipulate those around you, but simply take a position most people prefer not to fill. Besides, it's sometimes fun to be the underdog. 4) When trying to take over a position, make it a point to make sure to watch for who already occupies it and check to see if they are willing to give it up. Personally, just for a refreshing change of pace, I'm willing to vacate it temporarily. But, that does not mean you may fill my void permanently. I worked hard on that position, I have the greater experience with it between the two of us, and I will fight to keep it. Now, to address your arguments. 1. Professional skill = professionals. False. Professional skill without the proper equipment, which does include uniforms and badges, merely equals skilled amature. You want an example? Try my father. He knows the inner workings of any car made from 1950 to 1990 better than the back of his hand, and has the equipment to work on almost all of them. Is he a professional mechanic? No. He's an amature who knows this much about cars because a lack of money forced him to. In the shadowrun world, he's probably equivolent to a 4 or 5 in the B/R skill for cars, and definitely a 6 when it comes to those older vehicles. His experience is equivolent to the professional level, but it does not make him a professional. Now, my point? You are making the mistake of the idea that equivolencies must be realities. The dice rating system is to give you an idea of what the number is equivolent to. It does not mean that just because they have that level of skill or knowledge that they actually are what the rating says. What you seem to think is that the skill is exactly what it says, which comes from either bad wording in the book or simply failed logic. Now, can a person get a professional level of familiarity with weapon types? Yes. The person who lives in the house nearest where I grew up uses a shotgun with a skill unmatched by any I have seen, including that of military personel trained with the weapon. She's probably the only person in the U.S. I can see honestly expecting a headshot and getting her expectations fulfilled using that weapon. How did she get that level of skill? She trains with it every day, day in and day out. She has no military training, no professional training, and had no one to teach her. As a gun person, she's pretty much an amature. But just because she's an amature doesn't mean she won't splatter your brains against the wall if you break into her house. Just because a person has a skill equal to that of professionals does not make them professionals. It does not even mean they have professional training. What it does mean is that, either through recreational experience or necessary experience, they gained the skill level through repeated practice. 2) Well, they use the same weapons as the professionals! And I can go buy a civilian version of the M16 and, using the right manual and parts bought illegally, convert it to operating like the soldier version. Or, I can go to the black market and buy a military version of it or most military rifles available today. Really, common sense is the issue here. Weapons? With the right contacts today, I can buy enough guns to equip a small army and never leave the city I'm in. And if my contacts are golden, that equipment can be amazing in quality and how recent it was made. There are a few guns you can't get yet, but give it a year and that will likely change. What you can't get is the necessary uniforms, badges, and clearance backup that is legit for you to actually be a professional. And without those, an amature is all you will ever be. 3) Well, the contact list suggests... Okay, stop right there. At this point, the realm of realism has been exchanged for a DnD-style fantasy land. The contacts list represents people you have met during your criminal career who you go to on a regular basis for shady dealings. Your average street punk today will, if they are smart, have at least two, and many who have been on the streets for years will make it a point to either be constantly on the move or have a whole list of people they can rely on for various purposes. And that's today. Should your average runner have more contacts than Joe Blow? Yes. But that's because they are criminals, not because they are honest citizens. The honest citizen shouldn't have all of those contacts because they don't need them in most cases. The average runner needs contacts in order to survive in the criminal world. Within the scope of human experience, the personal cannot learn to do everything themselves and must at some point rely on others for something, even if the others are not aware they are being relied on. In the case of the SR world, it assumes the criminals are going to have stable homes and areas they frequent, which means the people providing for them are people they have to deal with often and must be nice to. If you need me to back this up with evidence, then I must begin to question your experience with the game, as it is readily apparent in at least SR3 and SR4, as well as probably apparent in SRs 1 and 2. Now, I would continue, but at this point I don't need to. A lot of this is simple common sense combined with actually paying attention to the world around me. If you want to continue, let me know. |
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Sep 12 2005, 05:18 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Correct me if I'm wrong.. but:
Doesn't that mean that either Shadowrunners are professionals: Their livelihood is based on shadowrunning or not: Shadowrunning is not a profession. It does not appear to have ANYTHING to do with gear and equipment other than nominally -- you need to have the appropriate tools. Can't be a professional technician without the tools. Can be in a pink tutu if you want though. |
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Sep 12 2005, 05:20 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
:? Huh? Okay, lemme see if I am following you. I'm a level 6 computer guy. Which is considered what, a 'Skilled Professional' in the book? Which means that I'm only a skilled professional if I have a computer? So my Skilled professional goes camping, takes no computer with him, and sometime during the driver he becomes a skilled amature? And so while he and his other level 6 computer co-workers are sitting around the fire, the can no longer discuss the intricate inner workings of their latest Programming project?? That makes no sense. Help me out here. Sure, a skilled professional with no equipment is pretty useless. Your Shotgun toting neighbor without a shot gun isn't splattering anyones brains, but she can still do it. Equipment makes it possible to do those things, and in some cases improve your skill - Scopes, smartgun links, programming suites, etc. But you don't revert from 'Skilled Professional' to 'Skilled amature' because you don't have your tools handy. "Crap I'm a bad ass race car driver, but I don't have my car. Still have the skill, just can't do it." And you father? You do him great injustice by calling him an amature if he has that level of skill with older cars. If you want to relate this to SR, and you made your father as a char today, yeah, give him Mechanics, with a spec in older models. If you made him 25 years ago, he'd just have mechanics, and his skill with newer models would improve as he went along. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say.... |
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