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> Shadowrun 4th review, A breakdown of the good and the bad
Fortune
post Sep 13 2005, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (Taran)
... but Kagetenshi is a benevolent dictator, and amenable to reason.

Just keep on believing that. :grinbig:
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 13 2005, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Adam @ Sep 13 2005, 10:12 AM)
QUOTE
(no doubt) bloated depths of FanPro


*falls on floor, laughing*

Maybe he's implying that Rob had a bad enchilada?

In SR3 the Matrix works on the same initiative scale as the Astral and the Meatworld, so they're already synchronized. I am indeed leaning towards not unifying decking and rigging, but I could be persuaded otherwise. The SR3R thread's open to anyone.

Suggestions are good. Suggestions with detailed explanations of what the suggestion brings to the table are better. An actual implementation is best, though obviously not necessary—still, if you can both capture my imagination with an idea and show me how it's workable (even if your idea isn't bulletproof) you're maximizing your chances of it seeing implementation in SR3R.

sapphire_wyvern: thus far I haven't been too impressed with the new Matrix rules, so I'd appreciate it if you'd pop over and tell us what you really like about it. Thanks for the suggestion, though!

~J
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Nimbex
post Sep 13 2005, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Pistons)
QUOTE (Adam @ Sep 13 2005, 10:12 AM)
QUOTE
(no doubt) bloated depths of FanPro


*falls on floor, laughing*

Maybe it's Ada's time of the month. ;)

Nope, SR4 establishes quite clearly that menstruation is "females only". So good that was clarified. x.x
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Adam
post Sep 13 2005, 06:30 PM
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Pistons is quite clearly talking about my not-prolific sister.
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JongWK
post Sep 13 2005, 07:16 PM
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Adam, you *definitely* have to send them your sister's profile. If you don't have the time, I'm sure that many here will volunteer to write it. ;)
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Semichrist
post Sep 14 2005, 12:25 AM
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For the record, for those unaware, that was not originally my typo. It is how it appears in the book. :)

That said, unless you would like "Ada" to remain for humor value, it will be corrected soon. I'm a bit embarrassed that I missed it when I was doing the data entry...
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Gondor
post Sep 14 2005, 01:57 AM
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I just really, really want the book :(
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Adam
post Sep 14 2005, 02:07 AM
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QUOTE (Semichrist)
That said, unless you would like "Ada" to remain for humor value, it will be corrected soon.

Don't get rid of her; she's my only sister that's amounted to anything! ;-)
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NightmareX
post Sep 14 2005, 10:16 AM
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QUOTE (sapphire_wyvern)
- Unified rules. Range Combat = Melee Combat = Cybercombat = Astral Combat.

Forgot about that one, also a like. :)

QUOTE
- The way that magic has been toned down a bit. The system has been made more class-less (which is good).


Sorry, but IMO Magic has actually been toned up, not down. Also a good thing, since one would expect that as the Awakening progresses.

QUOTE
- Spirits that have powers determined by the summoner (within reason).

- Magical tradition creation (although the small number of published spirit types means that GM creativity will be called for).


Also likes.

QUOTE
- Monofilament Chainsaws.


For the closet psycho in all of us. :D

QUOTE
- The idea that wireless networking is suitable as a replacement for *all* of a wired network, including all the bulk and/or long-range data transfer, instead of just as a really good interface to mobile/isolated devices/users. Easily fixed by a setting "houserule" that doesn't affect the gameplay in any way whatsoever.


Agreed, from a technical standpoint its just plain non-sensical to go completely wireless.

QUOTE
- Where has the Ford-Canada Bison and/or RR Prairie Cat gone in the vehicle list? And the GMC MPUV? Those were the standard "runner trucks" in every SR3 game I ever played in.

- In SR3, no runner could have an full-scale aircraft because of Availability restrictions. Now, no runner can have an full-scale aircraft because of the high/realistic price - even the cheapest workhorse utility chopper costs 225,000¥. I don't think a civilian light aircraft or helicopter is out of genre for Shadowrun (where there are ostensibly people who use military vehicles worth multiple millions of nuyen for smuggling), and I'd like to have it as a legal option for PCs.


These are two general ideas I'm happy they included. Given the changes to SOTA, advertising cycles, inflation, etc. I'd be really disappointed if prices and availability of things remained static.
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NightmareX
post Sep 14 2005, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
about the complaints on foci changes and similar changes not coverd in the back story. fasa pulled a similar one going from SR2 to SR3, suddenly grounding was totaly gone and you could pass thru living beings. no backstory for the change, nada.


I know, I didn't like it then either. :(

QUOTE
and having all elemental effect spell be combat spells makes more sense then having them all be elemental manipulations. the design rules in MITS didnt cover the diff between elemental manipulations and other manipulations and therefor you could in theory use said rules to design sustained damage spells :eek: but then it may well be that we do not get design rules this time round...


Actually I like fireball etc. as Combat spells, I just wish someone would make up my mind. :D

And they'd better give us spell design rules, otherwise we'll just have to make them ourselves (really easy in this system). :D
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NightmareX
post Sep 14 2005, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Sep 13 2005, 08:52 AM)
about the complaints on foci changes and similar changes not coverd in the back story. fasa pulled a similar one going from SR2 to SR3, suddenly grounding was totaly gone and you could pass thru living beings. no backstory for the change, nada.

And don't forget Spell Locks. Though to be fair, they were replaced by sustaining foci, and both rules and fluff-wise the old spell locks were a nightmare. Even so, having to use Retroactive Continuity so that whenever I seen an old product refer to a spell lock I mentally read sustaining foci instead left a bad taste in my mouth. I can take that kind of RetConning in comic books, because of the nature of the medium. I don't expect to have to do it with my Role Playing Games.

At least when they phased out program carriers, they acknowledged the change in game after giving us a viable alternative (cranial cyberdecks), and came up with the brain cancer explanation for an explanation.

I still slip and call them spell locks alot, resulting in my players looking at me like I'm speaking some foreign language. 8)
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sapphire_wyvern
post Sep 14 2005, 10:23 AM
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QUOTE (NightmareX @ Sep 14 2005, 08:16 PM)
QUOTE
- The way that magic has been toned down a bit. The system has been made more class-less (which is good).


Sorry, but IMO Magic has actually been toned up, not down. Also a good thing, since one would expect that as the Awakening progresses.


You may be right about the "tone-up". I haven't analysed the cost of having to purchase a Magic Attribute vs. the price paid in SR3 to get the full 6, so I don't know if magic has become relatively cheaper or more expensive. I'll certainly have to play SR4 a lot more before I decide whether magic's been toned up or down. :) By "toned down", I was referring principally to the ability to play a "weak" mage with reasonable BP efficiency at character generation - say Magic 2 to 4. If no one actually uses that opportunity... <shrug>

Certainly the Spirit rules *appear* to be a bit too powerful. Of course, the Force 8 spirits were *exactly* as hard to kill in SR3 as they are in SR4, if not harder (weapons with a damage code greater than 16 are somewhat rare, and attack roll successes did squat for bypassing the hardened armor) but they appear to be a fair bit easier to summon these days. And the Reaction stats in the Spirit tables seem quite absurd. And the ability to heal Drain with a Heal spell? I dunno about that, seems suspiciously like paying off credit cards with other credit cards...

I was a bit taken aback by the "no Force limit on spells" rule but it's really starting to grow on me now.

Nevertheless, I do like the fact that playing a character who is only starting to explore their magical abilities is now a real possibility.

(Incidentally, I'd love to see Grounding as a metamagic in "Street Magic". That'll show those whiners about retconning :) )

QUOTE


QUOTE
- Where has the Ford-Canada Bison and/or RR Prairie Cat gone in the vehicle list? And the GMC MPUV? Those were the standard "runner trucks" in every SR3 game I ever played in.

- In SR3, no runner could have an full-scale aircraft because of Availability restrictions. Now, no runner can have an full-scale aircraft because of the high/realistic price - even the cheapest workhorse utility chopper costs 225,000¥. I don't think a civilian light aircraft or helicopter is out of genre for Shadowrun (where there are ostensibly people who use military vehicles worth multiple millions of nuyen for smuggling), and I'd like to have it as a legal option for PCs.


These are two general ideas I'm happy they included. Given the changes to SOTA, advertising cycles, inflation, etc. I'd be really disappointed if prices and availability of things remained static.


Fair enough, I suppose. The "dislike" is more due to surprise than anything else, really. Still, the GMC Bulldog has always been quite inferior as a rigger's command van... :)
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NightmareX
post Sep 14 2005, 10:25 AM
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QUOTE (Adam)
QUOTE
(no doubt) bloated depths of FanPro


*falls on floor, laughing*

Glad you liked it Adam! :)

(btw, good to see you're still around. If you remember, I'm the guy that did that horrors conversion on the mailing list a few years back.)
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Adam
post Sep 14 2005, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE (NightmareX)
QUOTE (Adam @ Sep 13 2005, 10:12 AM)
QUOTE
(no doubt) bloated depths of FanPro


*falls on floor, laughing*

Glad you liked it Adam! :)

Sometimes I laugh when things are wrong, yet not funny. This was one of those times.
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NightmareX
post Sep 16 2005, 05:15 AM
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QUOTE (Adam)
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Sep 14 2005, 05:25 AM)
QUOTE (Adam @ Sep 13 2005, 10:12 AM)
QUOTE
(no doubt) bloated depths of FanPro


*falls on floor, laughing*

Glad you liked it Adam! :)

Sometimes I laugh when things are wrong, yet not funny. This was one of those times.

No prob :)
(Actually, I have no idea how big FanPro actually is, I was just ranting)
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 16 2005, 05:19 AM
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FanPro is this big: *puts one hand on one side of Rob, puts the other hand on the other side of Rob, holds the hands up for a visual*

~J
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hahnsoo
post Sep 16 2005, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
FanPro is this big: *puts one hand on one side of Rob, puts the other hand on the other side of Rob, holds the hands up for a visual*

The Shadowrun division, yes. The Dark Eye is a lot bigger, being Germany's top RPG and all.
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Adam
post Sep 16 2005, 05:58 AM
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FanPro LLC and FanPro GmbH are two distinct companies.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 16 2005, 06:14 AM
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Isn't it technically Fantasy Productions GmbH, while FanPro LLC is formally FanPro?

~J
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Elldren
post Sep 16 2005, 06:17 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Isn't it technically Fantasy Productions GmbH, while FanPro LLC is formally FanPro?

~J

You mean informally FanPro, 'cause it's formally FanPro LLC
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Fortune
post Sep 16 2005, 06:20 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
The Shadowrun division, yes. The Dark Eye is a lot bigger, being Germany's top RPG and all.

As far as I know, Rob (FanPro LLC) also handles the English versions of The Dark Eye and Battletech.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 16 2005, 07:22 AM
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QUOTE (Elldren)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 16 2005, 01:14 AM)
Isn't it technically Fantasy Productions GmbH, while FanPro LLC is formally FanPro?

~J

You mean informally FanPro, 'cause it's formally FanPro LLC

No, I mean it formally contains the string "FanPro" and does not contain the string "Fantasy Productions".

~J
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