IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

9 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Why Go Wireless?, Help with reasons why.
Shayd
post Sep 13 2005, 08:36 PM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 6-September 05
Member No.: 7,691



I'm discussing the rules with a few friends and while we've determined that hacking an individual PAN is not going to be a common practice used against the 'runners (it's difficult, and, it's not that useful compared to other things a security guy could do), the problem that comes up is this:

Even though the risk is minimal, if you're Joe Samurai or any non-rigger/hacker character, why on Earth would you take the risk *at all* of linking your devices (and especially your cyberware) up to a commlink and thus rendering it hackable?

Setting aside for the nonce the social reasons (everybody's doing it), to some, there would appear to be precious little reason to link *ANY* devices to a PAN, even if they had max firewall and IC and such out the wazoo. Smartlinks can be done with contact lenses and a skinlink, most other devices can be done with a skinlink, your cyberware all appears to work just fine without a commlink and with regards to each other, etcetera.

Off the top of my head there are only a VERY few situations you'd absolutely need something wireless despite the risks involved (and I am researching this but soliciting help here):

* You could possibly have set up with your commlink, if you wanted, to trigger stuff via an agent/frame to operate your 'ware/devices on autopilot if you went unconscious. (but you could just load the frame into the device itself), like a medkit in a cyberleg that automatically tried to first aid you if you went down.

* You need a wireless link if you have an Ocular Drone.

* The AR rules on page 208 say that the GM might grant a bonus of +1 to +3 (or penalty of -1 to -3) for actions where AR was appropriate and one presumes you had the correct tool. This might apply to certain pieces of cyberware.

However, none of this stuff seems to be all that big of a deal compared to the risks. There seems to be no /drawback/ to not being wireless, only some slight benefits, and lots of risks. So: Why?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 13 2005, 08:50 PM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 445
Joined: 18-August 05
Member No.: 7,567



Well first off. All devices for the most part are wireless by default to begin with. Don't want to route your gun into your PAN? Thats fine, unless you turn off that wonderful wireless chip in there, which you could do, it can be hacked regardless of wether or not you link it to your PAN, its just easier to do it if its not linked there.

The skin link i'm not sure how i'd have that work so lets put that aside.

Advantages of wireless stuff.

AR for one. Arrows are extreamly usefull.

Say your team is split up for whatever reason, or you want to give your rigger a idea of whats happening, ie guncam from the smartlink. Well if you're not wireless can't be done. Can't show him or the rest of your team what you're seeing when you put the barrel of your gun around the corner.

As for say your cyberarm? All depends on whats in it and what you're doing with it.

Whats the advantage of not being wireless.

You can't be hacked.

And thats about the only one I can think of.

Theres a wide variety of things where the wireless matrix and wireless links can give you a advantage. You just have to think about them and what you might be able to do.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SL James
post Sep 13 2005, 08:59 PM
Post #3


Shadowrun Setting Nerd
*******

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,632
Joined: 28-June 05
From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower.
Member No.: 7,473



I think he means wireless PAN, which I agree isn't worth the risk for the reward when there are other means to go about keeping all your little toys connected to your commlink, which itself can be wireless and overseen by your decker.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shayd
post Sep 13 2005, 10:02 PM
Post #4


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 6-September 05
Member No.: 7,691



This is correct: why is samurai guy gonna link anything to his commlink, like his wired reflexes or his cyber-whatever? That's the question. It implies that this is a good thing to do ("You can always temporarily or permanently disable wireless features, but it may mean a substantial loss of functionality putting you at a disadvantage.", sidebar, page 224) but it never once so far as I can tell enumerates any sort of loss of functionality whatsoever that can't be easily made up for with skinlinks, goggles, glasses, et. al.

So, help. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
apple
post Sep 13 2005, 10:53 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 875
Joined: 16-November 03
Member No.: 5,827



The answer is easy: the professional who has to assume that he will be attacked in different ways will try to minimize his weak spots. Lot of Runners, Bodyguards etcs will not use wireless PANs, but wired ar skinlinked PANs. That´s ok, there is enough other wireless PAN and other communication available to hack. In some ways, wireless is like reallife radio communication. Often it is ok to speak, but in some situations you need to maintain radio silence.

Btw: you do not need to be online if you want to have AR. You need to be online if you want an AR and a possibility to interact with the area around you (or your team, for example with interactive maps of a building). You do not need to be online if you are repairing a vehicle and use AR to overlay the construction blueprints over the vehicle and create a 3D-model of the car.

And yes, most cyberware will not be online. If is for Joe 2070 just so ... easy to download all these updates and patches ... think M$-Windows XP Auto-Update.

QUOTE ("SR4 304")

TURNING IT OFF
While wireless functionality is convenient, it is also a
security risk. The drawback to being able to save files on
your favorite rifle or cyberarm is that it might get hacked.
Wireless devices also tend to leave a datatrail as they interact
with other networks around you (one good reason to
operate in hidden mode and keep everything in your PAN
slaved to your commlink). Being careless with that can lead
to someone tracking you down or pinpointing you at the
scene of a crime. One way to prevent this is to load your
devices up with IC and encryption—courtesy of your team’s
hacker—but another might be to simply turn it off.
Any device’s wireless capability can be turned off with
a simple command. Of course, that means it needs to be
turned back on manually, unless you set it to reactivate at a
specified time.


SYL
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shayd
post Sep 14 2005, 02:37 AM
Post #6


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 6-September 05
Member No.: 7,691



See, Apple, your statements are the ones I'm hearing as to why to get things that aren't wireless.

However, the *game itself* implies that not having wireless stuff is seen as retro and stupid, essentially--cyberware included. Yes it says you should turn off some things, but it also says that you'll lose functionality if you do, and it vaguely implies that you might get bonuses if you keep things hooked up.

I don't need anyone to tell me why NOT to go wireless. I need people to tell me why folks WOULD!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Sep 14 2005, 04:33 AM
Post #7


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (Shayd)
I don't need anyone to tell me why NOT to go wireless. I need people to tell me why folks WOULD!

Maybe because, in the game world, not everyone is aware of the super-elite Hacker ability to screw with them. Most people would never run into any of these problems in their lives.

Even (non-Hacker) runners should not necessarily be privy to the possible pitfalls unless they have some kind of first-hand knowledge on the subject, or their Hacker friend tells them (and whom they may or may not believe).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hahnsoo
post Sep 14 2005, 04:40 AM
Post #8


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,587
Joined: 25-January 05
From: Berkeley, CA
Member No.: 7,014



Think of how many people today sit in coffee houses, wireless connecting to the broadband gateway, unaware of the security risks it presents to their data. Or people who go to links that data-mine from their computer for advertising. People do it for convenience, and most folks aren't worried about their electronics being used against them. Every time you send your personal information online, every time you connect wirelessly to a public broadband gateway, etc.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Elldren
post Sep 14 2005, 04:49 AM
Post #9


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 10-September 05
Member No.: 7,725



QUOTE (Shayd)
I don't need anyone to tell me why NOT to go wireless. I need people to tell me why folks WOULD!

Or, simply, the costs of going wired would outweigh the benefits, which for many runners would be limited. For most of a runner's typical gear, the signal range is <3m. For a hacker to attempt to isolate and brute-force into a sammie's wires she'd have to get very close. Typically when trying to hack a PAN a hacker would go through the commlink, the PAN's hub. Once the commlink is compromised it wouldn't matter how the other devices are connected, so skinlinks are mostly pointless at that point.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Sep 14 2005, 04:51 AM
Post #10


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



Then just what are Skinlinks good for?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Sep 14 2005, 04:52 AM
Post #11


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



this i think was coverd in a diffrent thread some time ago i think and the best explanation i have seen is ease of use.

just look at people today setting up wifi equipment and talking in bluetooth headsets (and now that they can allso be used as usable stereo headsets for your portable music player as well as a handsfree its even more interesting).

ie, joe wageslave will know jack about the security risks, just like your RL joe finding out about the ability to surf the net from anywhere inside his house or appartment by the help of one little box.

so most likely you will not see pros going wireless. but that punk that thinks he is hot from getting some contacts, the right programs and a gun will.

i may come up with a better set of reason ones i have had a look at the full set of equipment and how many of them that can be used while having clean skin contact. for those that cant there are two options, wireless or wired. and the former is more practical if your unaware or dont care about the security issue.

so most likely a runner will not allow his guns and other important gear to be used in wireless mode but some of the more throw away stuff may well be accessed thru wireless.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ranneko
post Sep 14 2005, 04:53 AM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 349
Joined: 16-January 05
Member No.: 6,984



You cannot jam a skin link.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Elldren
post Sep 14 2005, 05:25 AM
Post #13


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 10-September 05
Member No.: 7,725



Jamming aside (which is a very valid concern), most of these reasons are a bit overhyped.

It helps if you think of the commlink as a sort of DMZ for the PAN. The PAN is an enclosed network, with the comm as it's hub. PAN devices communicate only with the commlink, and receive information only from the commlink. The commlink in turn relays info to other PAN devices and to the network at large (WAN). To compromise a user's PAN involves first compromising the commlink. This is why good Firewall and Stealth programs are good not just for the team Hacker but for everyone with a commlink. These sorts of attacks on the user's commlink require the user to be connected to the WAN, but otherwise don't care how a user connects the devices to the commlink to form the PAN.
The other method hackers can use compromises not the entire PAN, but a single device on it. To do this the hacker muast be able to sniff out the device's connection to the commlink and exploit or spoof their way into the device. This requires that the hacker be within signal range of the device in question. Almost all of these devices have extremely short ranges, usually <3 meters.

Therefore, in order for the hacker to get access to your gun, she would have to either:
A. gain admin-level access to your commlink (at which point it doesn't matter how you connect devices to it) which requires that your commlink be visible to the WAN and able to accept requests or
B. get within signal range of your gun, sniff out it's communication and hack into admin-level access on the fly, all while within arms reach of you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Sep 14 2005, 06:25 AM
Post #14


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



Ok ...

Say I have a gun bunny with an implanted Smartlink, an ordinary (non-maxed-out) Commlink, and an Ares Predator IV. What exactly does he have to install the Skinlink mod on in order to protect himself from Hackers? Just the gun? The gun and the Commlink? Or the gun, the Commlink, and the implanted Smartlink?

If the last, how do you work modding the implant, being as there is no implanted Skinlink listing (that I can find)?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Elldren
post Sep 14 2005, 06:42 AM
Post #15


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 34
Joined: 10-September 05
Member No.: 7,725



You can't skinlink implants, as they aren't in contact with the surface of the skin, they're implanted. To connect an implanted device to the PAN you'd have to wire it to the commlink. In your example the gun bunny would be better off buying some smartgoggles and saving the essence, or implanting a datajack and having an old-fashioned optical cable jacked to the commlink.

Of course, all of this wiring may protect against hacking attempts against individual PAN devices made by hackers in arms reach, but it won't do anything to cover the much bigger security hole that is the bunny's commlink. It will help immensely with jamming problems, though, as there aren't any intra-PAN wireless signals to jam.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Sep 14 2005, 07:00 AM
Post #16


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



So there really is absolutely no equivalent to the totally implanted Smartlink/Induction Pad combo. That doesn't seem right to me.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 14 2005, 07:25 AM
Post #17


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



Or, untils Arsenal is available, simply assume that cyber implants are automatically skinlink enabled.
They can intercommunicate without wireless, too.

The main advantage of skinlink for runner types is, that it doesn't offset those broadcast scanners, while, as modulation of the field of the human body, still can extend enough to wear things on top of clothes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Earthwalker
post Sep 14 2005, 11:48 AM
Post #18


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 70
Joined: 5-September 02
From: Everywhere and Nowhere Baby
Member No.: 3,225



Wont a Skin linked gun and a implanted smart gun system function as before without the need for a comlink. Or would you need an internal comlink to act as an old style router ?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
warrior_allanon
post Sep 14 2005, 01:28 PM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 775
Joined: 31-March 05
From: florida
Member No.: 7,273



adept, smart shades, wired to gun down the sleeve, no commlink....have micro-transciever for communications, and telecom at home for matrix surfing

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 14 2005, 01:33 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 445
Joined: 18-August 05
Member No.: 7,567



Well lets look at the pro's and con's of wireless vs not wireless. Oh on another note I'm assuming you're still running a commlink in atleast hidden mode for this. Not running a commlink majorly increases the cons of being not wireless.

Not Wireless

Pro's

Your stuff can't be hacked into.

Con's

Can't share info


Wireless

Pro's

easy access to a wide variety of arrows.
Ability to deceminate this information to your team, such as tactical data

Con's

If a hacker manages to find your commlink he has the chance to hack into your network. And assuming you have no hacker/technomancer backup, he can do some minor screwing around. And actualy the most dangerouse thing he could realy do to you, besides stealing all your personal data is screwing with your smartlink. And even thats going to be easily noticable and quickly fixed by unsubscribing then resubscribing your smartlink.


In all honesty, what are you doing without hacker backup? Secondly you -need- a commlink to get by in 2070. Especialy if you ever plan in being anywhere decent. Granted if you want to hang out in the barrens 24/7 you might not need one. But there is very very little advantage not to have one. Afterall, as shown and noted several times in the book you can pull up maps of a facility and have the hacker higlight you guys and note the enemies. But without a commlink, you won't have access to that. Or the text messages from your team when they can't talk for fear of being found, you'll miss those too.

You're already going to have to be wireless essentialy. And your personal info's gonna be there. Whats the real advantage of being non wireless? And you can allways not have things be wireless, you don't have to have a wireless cyberarm if you don't want to.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nyxll
post Sep 14 2005, 01:50 PM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 404
Joined: 22-June 05
From: Canada eh!
Member No.: 7,455



QUOTE (Shayd @ Sep 14 2005, 12:37 PM)
I don't need anyone to tell me why NOT to go wireless.  I need people to tell me why folks WOULD!


You would go wireless so that, corps can detect your wireless signals and track you going through their facility easier.

You would go wireless so that Joe Asshat can jam your signal and cause your hardware to fail.

You would go wireless so that all your gear requires batteries and could run out of power in a run and add that extra level of prep.

You would go wireless so that drones can find a signal to lock in on a lower their target numbers.

You would go wireless so that you can see your commrades ammo count instead of yours.

QUOTE
Maybe because, in the game world, not everyone is aware of the super-elite Hacker ability to screw with them. Most people would never run into any of these problems in their lives.

Even (non-Hacker) runners should not necessarily be privy to the possible pitfalls unless they have some kind of first-hand knowledge on the subject, or their Hacker friend tells them (and whom they may or may not believe).


This is a step on the right track. I honestly believe that all of this extra radio pollution will start to show side effects in the future. Our airwaves are already flooded with signals, and it will only get much worse. Signals will have to get stronger just to overcome the background noise.

People are starting to slowly become aware of how vulnerable the are. Anyone else do wardriving? I do everytime I visit another city, when I need internet access. Those 40 million internet zombies out there would balloon to billions if everyone was wireless. Sandboxed or not.... hackers will find a way.

[SARC]So in short WIRELESS is brilliant and everything from your stick of gum to your toilet paper will be wireless.[SARC/]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fox1
post Sep 14 2005, 01:52 PM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 150
Joined: 31-August 05
Member No.: 7,660



Frankly I find the whole 'everything is wireless' to be illogical.

My final decision won't happen until I get my 4th edition book, but at the moment I'm leaning towards dropping SR 4th and staying in the 1st-3rd edition era for my campaigns. The new world isn't making sense to me.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nyxll
post Sep 14 2005, 01:59 PM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 404
Joined: 22-June 05
From: Canada eh!
Member No.: 7,455



QUOTE
In all honesty, what are you doing without hacker backup? Secondly you -need- a commlink to get by in 2070. Especialy if you ever plan in being anywhere decent. Granted if you want to hang out in the barrens 24/7 you might not need one. But there is very very little advantage not to have one. Afterall, as shown and noted several times in the book you can pull up maps of a facility and have the hacker higlight you guys and note the enemies. But without a commlink, you won't have access to that. Or the text messages from your team when they can't talk for fear of being found, you'll miss those too.


That is like saying that you cannot survive today without a cellphone. I used to have one when I went to college way back in 93. I was the only student in my department with one. I didn't know how people could live without them. Now I cannot stand the site of them. People driving and not paying attention to the road, to ignorant people at the checkout that make people wait for them to pay because they are too involved in a conversation.

Granted there are certain technologies I would never imagine being without, like internet and telephone. I think that basic communication technology is essential, but I think that wireless is not one of them. I can see RFID being used in shipping crates... but when I walk out of that store ... I want that RFID disabled.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Coasini
post Sep 14 2005, 02:05 PM
Post #24


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 18
Joined: 27-May 04
Member No.: 6,363



I've added routers and router ports back into cyberware, and those are the alternative for runners to get their stuff set up to run "not wireless".
I've also given them a relatively high cost and availability, simply due to the scarcity of doctors who are willing to work with wired stuff, and the low supply of these options. I follow the SR3 rules about what needs router ports in order to operate -- wired reflexes, for example, will not need a router.

In this way, it makes a runner have to sacrifice more money and essence to go wired. It is a benefit, but people will not do it unless they have a good reason to.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 14 2005, 02:08 PM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 445
Joined: 18-August 05
Member No.: 7,567



QUOTE (Nyxll)
QUOTE (Shayd @ Sep 14 2005, 12:37 PM)
I don't need anyone to tell me why NOT to go wireless.  I need people to tell me why folks WOULD!


You would go wireless so that, corps can detect your wireless signals and track you going through their facility easier.

You would go wireless so that Joe Asshat can jam your signal and cause your hardware to fail.

You would go wireless so that all your gear requires batteries and could run out of power in a run and add that extra level of prep.

You would go wireless so that drones can find a signal to lock in on a lower their target numbers.

You would go wireless so that you can see your commrades ammo count instead of yours.


Oh horray for sarcasm.

Thats what hidden mode is for to begin with. Theres also a section of what every runner should know, in which it fully states that you should know how to get rid of your datatrail, or you should have a hacker in your party.

Yes because we all know the person jamming you is going to get close enough to do that. And if he's able to jam that powerfully your entire communications net is down with your team and well you have to resort to shouting. Weather you were wireless or not, at that point you're still prety fragged.

Yes because all gm's worry that much about details. I mean gm's made you recharge your microtransiever all the time, oops you didn't declare you were recharging it after last time and its run out in the middle of the run, I'm sorry. :please:

Again hidden mode, secondly if you have a hacker you could hack into the drone and it wouldn't be a issue. But hey it also says nothing about your comlink provides a way to lock into you, as well you're not a vehicle with a signature rating. I mean since you're metahuman size its a -3 dicepool to the drone. So lets ignore the rules here like everyone else because we wanna be cool and trash the rules too.:please:

You'd only see their ammo count if you wanted to. Hidden mode. And only if he was broadcasting it to you. Unless for some odd reason you're right up in his grill and decided it'd be a good idea to subscribe his smartlink too.

Your other part is prety moot too even considering modern day wireless technology. You still need a 'accessID' or in todays terms a key to access a wireless networks. While you're wardriving you're either looking to pick up a unsecured network that broadcasts that key and doesn't have MAC filtering enabled, or you're looking for one you can easily guess or spoof the key. This is all really combined with the fact that wireless is just taking off here. And slowly its becoming more and more secure, or as secure as it can be. In shadowrun wireless networking had been in the works for years and was addopted 6 years ago in 2064 after the second crash. i think in 6 years or even in 5 years they'd know how to secure networks with IC and such.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

9 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 30th May 2024 - 05:43 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.