 Cyberware Vs. Bioware, I'll miss you wired reflexes |
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 Sep 17 2005, 01:15 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 29-January 05 From: San Diego, California Member No.: 7,032  |
While looking over the cyberware and the bioware section in the SR4 core book I've noticed that bioware seems to have received a huge boost in effectiveness and it seems to me that for the boost that it gets it has a very small impact on the body , just as an example
Wired Reflexes Rating 3 - 5 essence , 100,000¥ +3 reaction , +3 IP Now this is great in comparison to SR3's Wired , much cheaper but same bonuses(well sorta) and this is all fine and dandy for me but the thing that gets me heated is the changes bioware went though as an example Synaptic Boosters(Synaptic Accelerators for SR4) Synaptic Booster (3) - 1.5 essence , 240,000¥ +3 Reaction , +3 IP Now sure the 240k price tag is pretty steep for sammies starting off but for the essence cost it is well worth it especially with it giving the same bonuses , but look at it this way deltaware wired is only going to have a essence cost of 2.5 and it costs a costly 1,000,000¥ , still 1 more essence then it ... I don't know maybe I'm just ranting here but half of the cyberware is going this way now(the Bio version kicking its hoop) .... I just feel a little weird the cyber is taking a back seat in a cyber punk type game . is anyone else getting this same feeling? |
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Sep 17 2005, 01:19 AM
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#2
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
There are a lot of things cyber that can't be purchased as bioware (visual enhancement, smartlink, commlink, control rig, etc.). But for those cyberware that have bioware equivalents, it looks like the bioware costs less Essence and costs more nuyen.
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Sep 17 2005, 03:14 AM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Yep, It seems that way. Which is all good in my book. I have always been a hardcore implant guy, and this just seems like the natural progression though...
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Sep 17 2005, 04:14 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Sounds rather clunky to me. Did they just take all the reaction booster tech ( bio and cyber ) and make them all work the same?
If synaptic accelearators work just as good as wired reflexes then how do the others match up? What about boosted reflexes? What about move by wire? What about those reaction enhancers? |
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Sep 17 2005, 04:33 AM
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#5
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Pretty much. Which oddly in play isn't clunky at all. Every character simply has a number of initiative passes, and initiative doesn't go down during later passes, so if you went on 17 in the first pass and get to act in two passes, you go on 17 in the next pass. It speeds up play a lot.
The Synaptic Accelerator and the Boosted Reflexes are the same piece of tech now, and are called the Synaptic Booster.
Move By Wire is not in the basic book, and was never in any previous edition either. I predict that Move By Wire will add 1 to your IP, as well as +1 Reaction and +1 Agility for every level. If the essence cost is halfway competitive (1.3 Essence per level or less), people will line up to salivate over the prospect of getting it installed.
Every level adds 1 to your Reaction Attribute. That's it. No effect on your actions per round or anything, just adds to your Reaction. That being said, these things are awesome. Your Reaction is your Defense against all attacks. So this is basically +1 Combat Pool for .3 Essence. This item is in high demand. Especially for Riggers actually (since Reaction also adds directly to all piloting tests). -Frank |
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Sep 17 2005, 04:51 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
In SR3 wired reflexes had a greater cost in essense but far superior performance and were detectable by the most basic cyberware detection. Synaptic accelerators had the least cost but the worst performance and were barely detectable at all short of a full medical scan. Boosted Reflexes came in the middle.
But this flavor has apparrently been sacrificed in SR4 on the altar of conformity. I find that clunky. |
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Sep 17 2005, 05:26 AM
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#7
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
You find the prospect of unified game mechanics clunky?
I could accept it if you found them boring, but clunky? ---- That being said, the difference between Wired and Boosters now is a fairly large pile of money and an even larger (relatively) pile of essence. With the new edition's recosting of things, Wired Reflexes (and Muscle Replacement, for that matter) just didn't get the memo and cost way too much. So yeah, noone is ever going to have Wired Reflexes except minor thugs. That's a problem. But the unified game mechanics, that's not a problem. -Frank |
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Sep 17 2005, 05:44 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Perhaps clunky is the wrong word........
But in SR3 players had to make a choice between performance and detectability and essense cost. In SR4 that choice is obvious because one system is plainly better or equal than the other in every way. Would it really have been so difficult for them to figure out a way for wired reflexes to have a performance advantage to compensate for its obvious disadvantages? ( Detectability and essense cost ) The same thing happened when they meshed magic traditions together. They lost a lot of flavor for the sake of conformity. I'm determined to make this game more like SR3 using house Rules . ( trying to combine the more streamlined play of SR4 with SR3's better flavor ). But I'm starting to get a real view of how daunting that task may be. |
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Sep 17 2005, 05:44 AM
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#9
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Or people that want to be able to turn them on and off. I don't really have a problem with this. Poor people get less optimal tech. Seems alright to me. |
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Sep 17 2005, 06:23 AM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
I don't know man. Starting Chars have the choice of paying 160,000 for lvl 2 Boosters or 32,000 for level 2 Wired....Seems like they both have their niches to me.
Booster lvl 2==32 BPs Wired lvl 2==6.4 BPs It seems that essence isn't as big a deal as it used to be, so going alpha Wired 2 seems like a good choice to me. |
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Sep 17 2005, 06:52 AM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I'm not sure that they have any demand since most runners will have high Reactions and will likely have nearly maxed-out the modified limit with some form of initiative booster. For a human or ork with Reaction 6 and Wired Reflexes 3/Synaptic Booster 3, there's no real need for the Reaction Enhancer. Dwarves have even less need. Jay |
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Sep 17 2005, 07:03 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Gone from
Synaptic Accelerator - Worst Performance, Best resistance to detection, best essense cost Boosted Reflexes - Mid-range in all Wired Reflexes - Best performance, Easily detectable, worst essense cost * not including move-by-wire To Boosters - Same performance, Best Essense Cost, assumed more difficult detection Wired Reflexes - Same performance, worst essense cost, assumed easier detection It's not the change of mechanics I object to. It's the loss of variety and flavor. One player could choose to go the less invasive and more concealable route while another could choose the better preformance but more invasive and detectable route. And the true cyber nuts could go with move by wire. ( Synaptic accelerators were rare as at that point they'd just as easily go physical adept ) Now if you've got the cash there is no reason why you shouldn't go for the bioware version. Potential House Rule --------------------------- Synaptic Boosters know only add +1 initiative pass per level and does not increase reaction. But does recieve considerable advantages of being less detectable and much more diffucult to disable through anti-enhancement technology. |
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Sep 17 2005, 07:10 AM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Unless, as I mentioned before, you actually want to be able to turn them off and on. |
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Sep 17 2005, 08:28 AM
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#14
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Wait until you played until you houserule. ;) In 2070, bioware is the stated way of the future concerning modifications, so the fluff has changed. |
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Sep 17 2005, 12:00 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Though, I still dont get why bioware should be as good as cyber. ANd after all, its Cyberpunk and not Biopunk.
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Sep 17 2005, 12:08 PM
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#16
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Burn in pun hell. :dead:
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Sep 17 2005, 05:04 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Which is why its my stated goal to house rule SR4 so it more resembles SR3 in fluff or flavor while keeping what I think will be more efficient gameplay of SR4. I like that bioware now costs essense at a lesser rate than cyberware. A simplification that makes sense. I also think the initiative rules in practice sound easier than the calculations in SR3. But I'd still like a noticable performance difference between bioware and cyberware for reflex mods. I want to play SR4 Classic! ( SR4 that resembles SR3 in fluff ) |
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Sep 17 2005, 06:24 PM
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#18
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
so either shave of a ip or some of that reaction bonus...
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Sep 17 2005, 06:42 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Which is exactly what the potential house rule I listed above does. |
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Sep 17 2005, 08:34 PM
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#20
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
oops, missed that part :silly:
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Sep 17 2005, 11:36 PM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes, clunky. A kludge. A bad solution, making things that should not operate similarly operate similarly.
Which would be wonderful if it actually gave an advantage in the mechanics. Or have I missed something in my searching? ~J |
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Sep 17 2005, 11:40 PM
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#22
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
A simple way to get the kind of results you are looking for is to put Wired Reflexes onto the same kind of linear track as Synaptic Boosters.
At 11,000 :nuyen: and 1 Essence point per level, you'll see a lot of people using Wired. At most nuyen price points you get a substantially higher level of Wired and yet pay significantly more Essence both in absolute terms and relatively. In the ultra-longterm, people with the sweetest gear are still going to be using the bioware (as it costs as much essence for the standard grade as Wired would for Delta Grade, and it costs 27% less :nuyen: . In general, always adjust costs first and reserve mechanics changes for when you have a better grasp of the system. This is because an adjustment to the costs of things i always relatively limited in scope, while a mechanical change may have far reaching and unpredictable ramifications. Since I believe that you can get the results you are looking for (higher performance, but "lower tech" feel out of the cyberware version) with a simple cost adjustment, you should try that first. For one thing, if you later decide that it's a bad idea, a cost adjustment is pretty easy to retcon. Much more so than a more far reaching change. -Frank |
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Sep 18 2005, 12:01 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Got to Disagree. If after playing I the GM still want to make the change then those players who have Synaptic Boosters are going to feel gypped. This would go for any mechanics change that would significantly lessen the power of something a player has. ( And I'm planning a big one when it comes to summoning ) This is a potential change until I get the rule book ( deadwood edition ) and can make a more informed decision. But I'll make the decision then. I won't wait until after playing the game a few times to make it though. That simply wouldn't be fair to the players. The only good reason to lessen the power of something a character has after play has started is if something has proved unbalancing and disruptive to gameplay. The change to synaptic boosters would be to preserve the spirit of SR3 and wouldn't reach that criteria. |
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Sep 18 2005, 12:32 AM
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#24
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Remember how in previous editions a Boosted 3 system was the rough equivalent of Wired 2? Well that hang-up is gone for good. In SR4, if you have Reflex Enhancement 3, that means that you have Reflex Enhancement 3. Reflex Enhancement 3 in Bioware is just prohibitively difficult to get.
This is similar to how in previous editions you could stack the Synaptic Accelerator with other initiative enhancements (stacking it with Move-By-Wire in SR2 according to Cybertechnology, or Boosted Reflexes in SR3 according to Man and Machine). Through some very complicated systems of ropes and pulleys you could arrange in most previous works to have a total bio-based system that equalled or exceeded anything Wired was capable of - just not until you were already an experienced character. The only thing that is missing from that flavor set-up is that it's too frickin hard to get yourself Wired 3. If starting characters could purchase and afford Wired 3 without being jacked out of all their money and essence (and exceeding their availability restrictions besides), then the flavor of "better performance, lower tech" would be completely preserved. Whatever you do, don't make a Rating 2 Wired System work functionally different from a Booster 2. That's a complete step backwards into chaos. The beauty of the new system is that ratings have relatively constant meanings across different devices. That's great. If you want Cyberware to have an edge, give it its edge by allwing higher ratings, don't try to give it an edge by having each rating mean more. -Frank |
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Sep 18 2005, 01:02 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
But the entire point of my potential houserule is that I liked that hang-up!
Such a ridiculous cyber-bio-monkeys were pretty much reserved to the ranks of NPC cyber-zombies in my games. I suppose maybe if a player ever did get the cash I would have allowed synaptic accelerator 2 to add 1 die (instead of 2 ) to boosted reflexes. But it never came up. But yes such things would rightly be restricted to experienced characters.
I'm kind of okay with wired 3 reflexes being extremely costly and hard to get.
No its a step away from conformity. Much of my issues with SR4 is that in the quest for consistant rules much of the flavor and spirit of SR3 has been lost. Is it really such a burden for the same level of wired reflexes and synaptic boosters to have different degrees of performance? Of course not! |
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