I agree that a gang that only had a couple of humans in it would either need a reason why they don't WANT humans in (meta-only) or some reason why the human youngsters of the area were drawn to some other gang instead (a nearby human-only racist skinhead gang, or something).

Otherwise, humans are still very populus, and there would end up being humans around.

Also, humans don't cost BP, so dispite the fact that I almost always play humans, with fewer BP to work with, I would be more likely to want to be a human.

As for area, I don't care. Redmond or something sounds good. I've never been too good with knowing what goes on in each area by Cannon... but one thing we might want to consider about each area (that I didn't noticed brought up before) is the other gangs that frequent it.

I think the old SR3 Seattle book had, for each area of the city, a listing and description of 2-3 gangs that frequented that area.

If you guys make a troll-only gang, and decide to live in a part of town owned and operated by a skinhead human-only gang... expect more trouble than you would have if you selected an area of town where there are more trolls at.

I don't really have the resources to look into it... but we'd definatly want to firm up what the gang will be into/about before considering which other (famous) gangs they would try to ally with or avoid.

Neon is right, these ratings do only represent the official security (Lonestar mostly, in Seattle) and then only the random level of police activety. If a Gang start cooking up explosives for sale in the Z-Zone, eventuall, sombody is going to take a look. If on the other hand, some gangers ride into a hood on an irregular hit and loos some shots, the ratings will most likely apply, but they are no more then rough guidelines.

EDIT: BlackHat
Thanks for warning me against my conspirative enemies.

As for Area
I´d sugest first figuering out, which securitylevel we want. If thats done, we can chose a hood from the seattle sb, that has the seclevel we want, based on the other propertys (like other gangs, metahuman populance, mob-activity, etc.).

I like either a C or D zone, personally. You're going to run afoul of the law at about the same rate in either, really. So long as petty crime (what the gang should be engaging in, primarily) is commonplace, then you should be fine.

For reference, here are some relevant snippets from New Seattle:

Bellevue
Population: Human 63%, Elf 13%, Dwarf 2%, Ork 19%, Troll 2%
Major Gangs: 405 Hellhounds, Lake Acids, Leather Devils, Nova Rich
C Zones: Coalfield, East Gate, May Creek, Newcastle, Redmond

Comments: Human dominated gangs with Yak and Mafia involvement.

Tacoma
Population: Human 71%, Elf 11%, Dwarf 1%, Ork 15%, Troll 1%
Major Gangs: The Ragers, The Spikes
C Zones: Fife, Milton, Northeast Tacoma, South Tacoma

Comments: Troll and ork dominated gangs.

Everett
Population: Human 72%, Elf 14%, Dwarf 1%, Ork 11%, Troll 1%
Major Gangs: Kabuki Ronin, Red Rovers, the Scatterbrains
C Zones: Casino Corner, Fairmount, Intercity, Old Everett
D Zones: Lowell, Keeler's Corner, Pinehurst

Comments: Gangs do a lot of smuggling and there are plenty of gogangs. There is also involvement from the Mafia, and the Seoulpas rings. No strong race dominance in the gangs.

Renton
Population: Human 65%, Elf 10%, Dwarf 2%, Ork 20%, Troll 1%
Major Gangs: Blood Mountain Boys, Night Hunters
C Zones: Christopher, Meredith (some areas)

Comments: Of the two gangs, one is mixed race, but the other is strongly anti-meta. Organized crime has some pull with the gangs. There are also a lot of gangs in the area, with drug and chip trade being the hot topics.

Auburn

Population: Human 64%, Elf 12%, Dwarf 2%, Ork 19%, Troll 2%
Major Gangs: None
C Zones: Black Diamond, Enumclaw (some areas), Sumner (some areas)
D Zones: Bolse

Comments: A lot of gangs with a lot of variety, but no major ones.

Snohomish

Population: Human 86%, Elf 6%, Dwarf 1%, Ork 5%, Troll 1%
Major Gangs: None
C Zones: Carthcart, Kennard's Corner (some areas), Lynnwood, Monroe (some areas), Trasher's Corner

Comments: Few gangs are present. Most of the gangs that are around are exclusively metahumans or exclusively human. Racial tensions run high.

Fort Lewis

Comments: Not suitable.

Redmond
Population: Human 81%, Elf 6%, Dwarf 1%, Ork 10%, Troll 1%
Major Gangs: Brain Eaters, Crimson Crush, Red Hot Nukes, Rusted Stilletos, Spiders
C Zones: Redmond (aka Touristville)

Comments: Mostly an E-Z zone. A lot of gangs. A lot of BIG gangs. The Barrens are pretty much in open war. Touristville isn't quite as bad, but it's still not good. The syndicates are all over the place, too.

Puyallup
Population: Human 48%, Elf 21%, Dwarf 4%, Ork 22%, Troll 4%
Major Gangs: The Black Rains, Forever Tacoma, The Princes, the Reality Hackers
C Zones: Puyallup City

Comments: Lots of E zones. Heavy racial lines in gangs and lots of racial tension.

What about Seattle-Downtown-Destrict?

Population: Human 63%, Elf 13%, Dwarf 2%, Ork 19%, Troll 2%, Other 1%
Major Gangs: Bloody Screamers, Disassamblers, First Nation, Halloweeners, Troll Killers
C Areas: Bitter Lake, Riverton (some sections), Columbia (some sections), Ravenna, Van Asselt (some sections), Tukwila

Comments: ??

Thanks for all the area-info! Wow.

Everett is the sort of area I'd like to play in (but I know others disagree). In fact, come to think of it, I once played an SR3 go-ganger who lived in Everett. Nice.

Renton and Auburn eems to have a note that there are lots of start-up gangs around, rather than huge dominant gangs - so might be a better place to try to start up a new gang.

Downtown has a little bit of everything. You've got humanis goons, organ leggers, ork gangs, and psychopaths. I left it off because, well, it's downtown. Not where one would want to cause some serious drek, really

This one looks pretty good, I'd say.

Everett
Population: Human 72%, Elf 14%, Dwarf 1%, Ork 11%, Troll 1%
Major Gangs: Kabuki Ronin, Red Rovers, the Scatterbrains
C Zones: Casino Corner, Fairmount, Intercity, Old Everett
D Zones: Lowell, Keeler's Corner, Pinehurst

Comments: Gangs do a lot of smuggling and there are plenty of gogangs. There is also involvement from the Mafia, and the Seoulpas rings. No strong race dominance in the gangs.

Bye
Thanee

As a few quick observations:

1. It seems like there is a lot of support for a go-gang. Keep in mind some go-gangs don't claim a particular stretch of turf as their own, instead wandering around Seattle. If we had a go-gang that was wandering while looking for a particular patch to 'settle down' in, that would open some interesting possibilities. It would probably be harder to work overall and I'm not necessarily advocating the idea, but I thought I'd toss it out.

2. It seems like almost every race but elves has been strongly suggested for the gang. Perhaps one gang trait is that we don't like elves, hence, anyone but elves can join. That would allow humans, and orks to be the majority races (which has been suggested and is statistically sound) and allowing for a few dwarves and trolls as well, and no elves. That would seem to allow the races that have been put forth most strongly.

Question: At some point it will be necessary to compile the most common suggestions and vote, specifically for gang focus, location, and metatypes, and perhaps a couple others. When were you planning on having us vote TG? And how much more discussion did you want? Just so we have a general guideline of when to stop throwing out new ideas and narrowing down the most liked ones into the final contenders.

We could also be Go-Gang wannabees. In other words, we are tied to our home turf, a few blocks (i.e. not much), probably getting squeezed on both sides by bigger more established gangs, and see the need to mobilize to survive. However, we don't yet have the funds or means to do so.

Hell, most of us won't be legally able to operate vehicles if we are young. That in itself limits our ability to be mobile all over Seattle.

Personally, a go-gang isn't my favorite, but I think I could work with it if the gang had a stretch of home turf as well.

Anyway, I've thrown up a couple of pages over on the Wiki with polls on them. The one for concepts is pretty empty as of yet, so it's more there to be populated than to be voted on. Feel free to either post your vote here or over on the Wiki (and someone will post it there). Just sign your DSF name on the list with your racial and area preferences.

I think the SR go-gangs usually have a home area, rather than being nomads or whatnot.

Bye
Thanee

I'm not a fan of Go-Gangs either. Go-Gangs alot of the time have enough money to live they just steal and such for the thrill and for that extra cash to upgrade their ride, they don't have the feel of living on the street and trying to survive.

Living on the streets is rough and not a walk in the park, I like the idea of the game starting around the begining of a new gang, trying to put enough together to survive the night let alone the next week or month. My suggestion would be a VERY basic gang concept, not even a plan really, but enough that you could develope a character that would fit in. Then toss everyone onto the streets and see how the whole thing gels. The fight for leadership once there are enough people to warrent someone being in charge. Prehaps having 2 groups forming then the contest between them to see who swallows who.

If we are going to choose a "primary" metatype thats not human, we could offer a slight BP discount if you choose that type.

My character choice would either be a recreation of my Streetwise adept thief from Large Mikes Game or prehaps an awakened troll or orc medic.

Races Poll on the Wiki.

i am not sure the races poll on the wiki is going to work out as intended.

for instance, if someone votes for one "include" and the rest "exclude" the votes won't really be tallied as a single race vote. they will be tallied individually.

did that make any sense?

in an overall sense, yes. however, if i only want it to be an elf gang (i don't) that won't be factored in. it will just be one vote tallied for elves and one vote counted against the others.

by this method, there is no way to vote on a single raced gang.

That was actually meant to be a reply to Tashio...

Bye
Thanee

Location:

I voted for Puyallup mainly because of the denser meta-human populations and the abundance of E zones.

Oh yeah, and the Princes sound like chumps.

Same here, Silo. In spite of my leaning toward a single dominant race in the group, I'll settle for some other unifying factor. Of course, where there are more races, there's bound to be more tension right?

This non-race unifying factor better be good.

Early polling (which is all of 4 or 5 respondents) indicates a heavy interest in Pullyallup and Auburn - WHICH - are neighbors.

Anyone see where I'm going with this?

Actually, Everett got jsut as many votes as those two at the moment. 3 for each.

Ahem...


Our gang could be huddling on the border between Auburn and Pullyallup (sp?) - it's a no-man's-land that we're claiming. We could have been pushed out by the bigger organized gangs of Pullyallup, or staking a claim in the free-for-all of Auburn.

This fringe area has the benefit of a highway if we want to be go-gangers or smugglers. It has good racial diversity no matter what we decide there.

Hang on a sec, you guys are voting twice!

Maybe we should resolve the 'gang-type' first. Or pick an area and let the type of gang evolve out of that.

Well, I probably would have started with just the gang's focus, then location, then races, but I'm pretty sure something will evolve out of this.

Bye
Thanee

I'm thinking that our "focus" can be pretty loose at this point. If we are teenagers just starting a gang, our focus would be pretty childish I would imagine.

Getting high, drinking, cars, bikes, getting laid.....pretty much the focus of all teenagers.

A true "purpose" of the gang would manifest over time.

I like your straddling the fence idea, Sparky.

Right, I would agree, Thanee/BlackHat, but I think Winterat's idea about a gang whose drives and goals evolve IC is more compelling than writing it in my background that we're a go-gang.

If we choose an area and then run from there with chargen (with the place we choose guiding race/skills/interests/backgrounds) , I think we'll get something really interesting.

There seem to be people on both sides of the go-gang idea.

- For those of you who like go-gangs... what is it that you like about them?

- For those of you who don't like go-gangs... what is it that you don't like about them?

We should all have a unified idea of what it means to be a go-gang, I'm pretty sure it means something different to each of us. Maybe there are small or negotiable issues at hand that will get us all what we want.

Go-gangs are generally portrayed as being psychotic spoilt brats who don't need to engage in any form of criminal activity to survive, they do it as a way to rebel against their comfortably upper middle/upper class parents who paid for whatever they're riding round in, which is why they're not as appealing.

I'm inclined to agree with whoever said the best idea is to agree on the racial makeup of the gang (if any) is going to be, their age/area of location and then just dump them in it.

I don't know a bunch about go gangs, so an explanation would help me out.

I think I like the idea though because it would give my character some motivation. Upgrading my ride would be a good reason to get nuyen. And racing would be a cool "gang" activity.

On the downside, I don't want to be a nomad. Or, a rich kid just out thrill seeking.

Couldn't we be a gang that liked to race without being a stereotypical go gang?

I haven't voted yet, but I think a possible compromise is beginning to present itself.

I think ES Sparky's idea of a gang straddling the Auburn/Puyallup border is fantastic. What if we went with something like this:

For reason X (which I can't think of right now), the gang settles at the Auburn/Puyallup border. Instead of trying to be a go-gang or street gang, they decide to be both.

Logic: Being a go-gang on the Puyallup side of the border gives the gang mobility, the better to be able to avoid a direct confrontation with the bigger and more powerful gangs that roam Puyallup, and the street gang on the Auburn side gives the go-gang a safe place to retreat to to lay low, regroup, hole up, etc.

On the Auburn side, having a street gang that is slowly carving out a bigger set of turf would be good for the go-gang (bigger haven to retreat to, more business, larger controlled span of road, etc), and the street gang could call in the go-gang group for backup and as an edge against all the other smaller, more splintered street gangs on the Auburn side. Plus the go-gang could watch their backs and cover the Puyallup border against any incursions from behind, while if the Puyallup gangs cross into the Auburn side, they'll be off their familiar turf, and the street gang will have an edge in backing up their go-gang buddies.

Think of it as two chapters or factions within the gang. Plenty of room for politics and interesting interactions all around, and the fact that they'd be drawing from Auburn and Puyallup creates an excellent rationale for racial diversity.

And here's a possible reason X: Being squeezed between Puyallup and Auburn, they lack enough of a 'resource base' (for lack of a better word) to expand into Auburn as just a street gang, and they're too small to take on all the Puyallup gangs on their home turf. Solution: Play it right down the middle, using your advantages from one side against the disadvantages of the other.

That could even be the gang focus (for now): simple survival, since we'd essentially be caught in between several bigger and stronger gangs on the Puyallup side, and smaller but much more numerous enemies on the Auburn side, all waiting to kick us to the curb.

Thoughts?

BlackHat's PC could be 'the rich guy.'

For the record, I'm in the 'thrill-seeking-miscreant-rebel-youth-are-annoying' camp. But I can see why people think that would be fun to play. I'm looking for middle ground.

What is the most important part of the go-gang image to you BlackHat?

And what is the most repugnant part of the go-gang image to you NeonWraith?

Silo - I agree. We could make a group that has some folks that like racing, but isn't all about being reckless daredevils. Sure there'd be plenty of deviltry, but it wouldn't have to dominate.



Back to the organic gang generation. I think there are demographics enough for the location we pick to suggest races in the area and what the likely race(s) of gang members would be. Concept and focus would come naturally after that, wouldn't it?


EDIT: Cross-post with Winterat. Good stuff there. That sounds good to me. I'm in.

Ok, this grows way too fast for me to follow all that gets posted, but I'll check the wiki out though.

I'm very interested and many people are throwing good ideas around. It'll be hard to find a way to pick everything. We might have to move to polls, no?

Winterrat, I like it.

I can't wait until we self destruct and have an intergang war. Oh...maybe that won't happen.

Seriously, I do like your idea. Makes for all types to be involved and has lots of hooks, etc.

I really think, it´s unnacessary to nail down focus compleatly befor chargen. Like TG posted way up, if the pcs were recruited a month ago, they would not all have the same focus, some may want to make a go gang and be fortunate enough to have a ride, others may want that too, but lack the ressources so far and still others are more on the street side and dont even want to throw out good cash for bikes, that could be spend on [not-bikes].

I´ll go voting now. I probably like the border turf Aub/Puy (though I initially intended to vote for Downtown). On race, I don´t know, I´d like to play an elf, but maybe I´ll sttle on a norm or ork. Focus is something really unimportent for me at this point. When the game is running, we will see, what we can do and that´ll be our focus, than we may shift, expand or diversivy later on.

Some fluff for the Auburn/Pullyallup border...

The highway between is the 410. Things related to that number...

The Year - I particularly like the last bit... "Debatably the beginning of the Dark Ages"

The Shotgun - weapon of choice?

The Auto Specialists - no joke.

The Scouts - heh, we needed a common background, right? I think that about sums us up.

The Tadpoles - Yeah, I don't get it either. But you get the idea.

Bah.... it's 418, not 410.

Sadly, 410 is WAY more interesting than 418.

We don't need to be a classic go gang.

I just want to be able to be a ganger with a fast bike or car and be able to race. This doesn't require the gang to be nomadic or a predatory go gang.

Just like... 2 Fast 2 Furious!
hehe

Hehe, yeah. I'm definitely fine with a typical gang also. But I will buy... err... have a bike, because a bike is cool.

Bye
Thanee

So, there are some votes cast now.

On the Turf. Looks like we are going to sattle down on the Auburn/Puyallup Border. Since we want C or D zone and probably not bordering on a Z hood, we should probably choose Puyallup City or (more likely, because most people seemd to want the turf to be on the Auburnside) Sumner, which are both C (while the northern part of Sumner is B) and prety central, too.
The turf is flanked by the 167, you can have a closer look here.

On the Race-Topic. So far, Humans are clearly in and would probably be the most numerous. 2nd bigest group are orks, but only by narow margin to the other 3 Metatypes, which would probably be tolerated, too.

On the Focus. So far, everybody, who voted, wants to leav that open and develop it in the game, based on the pcs, the gangs actions and possibilities.

So we can probably start posting our character ideas. Not outright stats, yet, but concepts and bg, which can than be tuned in on each other.

Me personally, I´d probably want to play an amerind/asian, elven wizkid (early teens, some social skills, magic ~1, max 2-4 spells), which lived on the streets for some time (probably most of his life), mostly by leaching of other people and some unprofessional hooding now and than. I´d probably like him to come from Vancouver and only come to Seattle some months (no more then 2 years ago), but it´s all very fluid, still.

Personally, I am against the go-gang thing.


I think there is a large difference between a gang where some members ride a motorcycle, as opposed to an actual hardcore go-gang.

The former is definitely a possibility in any urban environment, the latter seems too....restrictive.

As to how the gang makes money, I think there will be one or two major breadwinners and lots of 'scores' that bring in extra cash.

To an extent it depends on the area and the skills present in the gang.

If it's more of a cosa nostra build, there could even be different crews, smaller groups of people, who specialise in different things, just as long as the rewards are shared or passed on upwards, depending on the hierarchy (and make no mistake, gangs are hierarchical)

cheers

Bladepoet

We could hang out in Loyalty Park and sell drugs (or guns) to the kids in Sumner High (the bikers could bring in the stuff from Puyallup). On the side, we could occasionally go hooding in the better, northern parts of Sumner.
Then when we get stronger, we could branch out into protection, prostitution or even smuggling and raiding, depending on our skills and contacts.

The elder guy, who started the gang a month ago probably did it all, just to get some cronies to earn him , which he all spends on booz, chips, dope and chicks. The gang members won´t se the bigger cut of it (at first at least).

I'm working up a "face/con" type char for this *gasp, shock, surprise!* and I kind of like how it's coming together. We'll see how badly I FuBar the SR4 char gen rules however.

Question would be about Cyber, assuming availability falls under the same "restrictions" as gear?

If we were thinking of naming concepts already, was thinking of a making a dwarven ganger (or human if necessary) named "Jo." face/rigger, son of a wealthy businessman, Jo rebelled when young, he started stealing, and conning his way into and out of trouble. His dad bought him a control rig as a way of trying to focus his son, and it worked for a while, where his son spent many days in the garage on his car. This didn't last long as Jo soon stole his dad's car, and ran out of the house. He has been on the run ever since.

Jo- face/rigger/covert ops man.