Any gun that a really determined operator can figure out how to reload more than once per turn has something going for it.

Because swords are uber! You can't (easily) have hordes of ninjas without ninja toes.

Your example is ludicrous and you know it. And it fails to hold up the reason why wired 3 is logical: it has no basis in history.

I'm also assuming your human comment was facetious. If not let me know and I'll point out why it's no good either.

Nuyen != BP

My God, are you asshats still droning on and on about this? The fact of the matter is that, no matter what's said, Cynic project is a raging jackass and will never even listen, nevermind consider.

For the record, if I were Cynic's GM, I would forcefully implant every single one of his PCs, unto the end of time, especially the mages, with standard-grade WR3, just for this thread.

Have my children, Geekkake.

EDIT: No! I demand to give Geekkake awesome points before you! I SAID IT FIRST CORN-SARNIT.

So your whole point is the history disparity of wired relfexs. Dude, if that is the point then don't print use them.

I will accept your offerings after the child is conceived.

Coffee is fine, too.

James: I mentioned earlier that it's entirely possible that SR4 has intentionally inferior pieces of gear. Wired has a little bit of a thing connected to it, because, well. It's always been 1-3-5. If you wanted to make it not be that at standard grade, it'd be something else. Another reason for intentionally lousy(in comparison!) gear might be NPC outfitting.

Yeah, I know. I've said that too.

I'm getting deeper in SR4 and now I really don't get th issue.

Initially the first poster felt Wired was too cheap and that everyone would get it. An issue obviously long forgotten since the last page seems to be "Why would anyone get Wired? It's sucks" VS "It is now low end tech".

But I don't get it.

An obvious way to design a combat monster (and we all know there are many ways) is to use Wired 2 and then focus on bioware.

32,000$ for Wired 2. Effectively 1,5 point of essence because you are gonna take more bio than cyber.

That's almost 4.5 points of essence left for bioware, you have your 3 IPs, you've saved 128ks (26 BPs) over synaptic. And out of the 4,5 points of essence left, you won't need to shell out 1 point for Synaptic boosters so it's all muscle augs, Orthoskin and whatnot.

It seems an obviously very efficient way to build a combat specialist to me.

---

A concept where Wired 3 would be a likely purchase (in play, obviously) is the Killer Sniper.

4 IP for a sniper PC with awesome stealth and long arm skill is a deadly combo. And it's far easier during the campaign to pick up 100 000$ than 240 000$. So in that case, I'd pick up Wired 3 instead of scrounging pennies during an additional 15+ sessions in order to raise the additional 140K for synaptic 3.

---

And of course there is the obvious case of, say, a rigger or a hacker shelling out 11 000 (2 BP) for some more combat omph.

I mean, what hacker/rigger is gonna pay 80k just for the lower essence cost and risk of MAD detection? That's 16 BP instead of 2!

No, if you are one these two common archetype, if you intend to increase your combat worthiness, you want to do so with the smallest possible investment since it's not your focus.

---

Bottom line, Wired reflex aren't even outdated. For some particular needs, they're still your best buy.

I get the impression that Cynic believes that there is a specific best of any type of product. In Cynic's world there is only one Digital Camera(or Golf Driver, or Rotary Tool), and why everyone does not buy it he cannot comprehend. He believes that everyone will have perfect little numbers like this is a rating 3 camera, and it's obviously better than the rating 2 camera that is the same price.
Or this camera provides me with 3 extra dice when I take a picture, this one only provides 2.

You won't convince him that it should exist, you can't, because in his world it shouldn't.

I was thinking of reasons to have Wired 3, and frankly there are a few. But I know that typing them out for Cynic would be pointless. So instead, you got this. Sorry for not being helpful to you and your question Cynic, but I don't think anyone could.

NO U

Not everything is destined for PC hands, and not everything is the best possible choice. Why do they have so many heavy pistols when the Predator is so superior? Why so many assault rifles when the Ares alpha is the only one worth getting? Answer: because not everybody minmaxes their characters, and not every NPC has access to the best possible gear.

If you only use the things that are clearly the top of their tech / magic tree then your games must be pretty boring. But as you said, you won't listen, so I'll stop talking.

Buhbye

Two out of four characters in our group have wired 2.

My arguments are in regards to Wired 3. My defense of wired reflexes happens earlier in the thread.

I was giving those other examples as off the cuff parallels with no book handy. Apparently the predator was a bad choice, but I thought I remembered someone else using it earlier and not getting shot down so I decided to go for it.

Ah, yes, the wired 3 is harder to justify. But I gave one earlier ; The Killer Sniper.

It's far easier to outfit your killer sniper with wired 3 during play than with synaptic 3 because of the price.

And the killer sniper is mostly worried about perception, stealth and the ability to empty a clip before anyone can blink so Wired 3 is a great piece of hardware for that guy.

Which falls in line with my "there will be times it makes sense." I'm not even sure why we're still going back and forth on this, as we seem to agree completely.

We're obviously of a very contrarian nature. Too bad we're not neigbor, we'd have some interesting discussion over a cold beer. Probably starting with arguing over which cold beer is best.

No we wouldn't. It's obvious to any true beer afficianado that Corona with a little bit of lime is the best.

See? I don't entirely agree. I much prefer a Guiness. I'd only concede that a Corona is one of the best lager. Oooh, we would be at it for hours.

You could compromise over a black and tan.

Yeah, cause 25,000 or 1.5 skill points is not something a gunslinger needs. And of course you've screwed yourself if you're in a position where you don't have both hands free, because now you're firing once a round.

I don't see where ambidexterity is an integral part of the gunsinger concept. Maybe the dual-wielding gunslinger, but that's just a portion of the overall variants for the archetype.

I still think it's ridicolous that 10 BPs gets you +2agi, +2rea, +2IP (muscle toner 2 and WR2).

And uses over half of your essence.

the REAL limit here, is that you can only get 50 BP of money for equipment and cyber. thats 250,000. and from that, you need lifestyle, guns, ammo, armor, commlink, vehicle, and whatever else you need to do your job. If you want to have decent equipment, then you probably cant get more than 220,000 of cyberware/bioware.

now, if you get synaptic 2, then you have maybe 60,000 to spend on other ware. a paltry sum, not enough to really get all the upgrades you want. but if you get alphaware wired 2, then thats close to 150,000 for other ware. more than twice as much to spend on upgrades!

now, you say your fear is 'every non-awakened' will get them. lets consider what characters really NEED this kind of an edge?

with the changes to AR vs VR, wired 2 is as fast in AR as hot sim. so hackers and riggers can have a benefit to using wired. riggers get to choose between AR bonus dice, or Sim lowered threshold. The hacker is now expected to be on-site most runs, so being unable to fight while sitting safe at home is no longer a real option.

for the rest of your non-awakened.... well, some of them may want to get to participate in combat as well. SR is a great game specificaly because of the lack of artifical barriers to archtypes. but there IS a tradeoff. for every bit of ware you get, thats BP that your not spending on skills and contacts. Sure, you face can get wired 2. but if he gets 50 BP of equipment, and 200 of atributes... that leaves a mere 150 for skills and contacts. can you do everything in your character concept with those points?

If you want to put a downside on +IP, then theres already a couple rules to that end in cannon. social penalties from low essece, and the 'hair trigger' problem of being too wired all the time. that off switch is priceless for just that reason.

1 - What prevents you from dropping one weapon if you need a free hand? It's a free action and pistols are cheap.

2 - What is preventing you from using different type of pistols? Even if you favor warhawks for shootout, It doesn't have to be all you use. By all means carry a silenced or silenceable hand gun to go with your hawks.

3 - Ambidextrous is worth the points. It's also a pistol in one hand and a one handed melee weapon in the other. If you are an adept, that weapon can be your weapon foci. It can also means you are carrying two guns with distinct ammo, shooting gel or explosive ammo as required. It can also be a pistol in one hand and a grenade in the other. It also means that if you glitch and somehow hurt one arm, you still have a good arm no matter what, no -2.

Finally it means you can always get good cover when you have a corner to shoot around. That one is a biggie. I invoked it twice last session alone. The ambidextrous PC will never have to worry about that.

A 5 BP well spent.

Edited to be less verbose

1) Weapons are only cheap in games where money flows fast.

2) Go for it, but if you're focused on warhawks, you're probably specilized in them, and will lose a lot when you go to dual wield something else.

3) Cool.

Don't you spec in Heavy Pistols, not Warhawks?

Sorry, SR3 flashbacks.

aren't warhawks revolvers?

That's it. No more replying to this thread until I've got an SR4 in front of me. :crazy: