I think of it as the Universe conspiring to give you the opportunity to improve. Putting you in the right place and the right time with the right state of mind so that you can better yourself.

I mean, it's called Karma.

That works.

Facial recognition (and more generally digital signal processing) works because the considered pictures are simple: when you slightly twist a face picture you still get a face picture and when you slightly change the way a face picture has been taken you get a close face picture, where "slight" and "close" are well-defined terms. There is no guarantee that astral pictures taken by the quicksilver camera are that simple.

It's actually pretty much the opposite. It is clearly stated that the obtained picture is physical ("full color physical projection of the astral objects"). However, one still has to Assense it to extract information. So mundanes can see the picture but they cannot interprete it. They cannot even be trained to interprete it. All they see is noise. I don't see how machines could do any better than mudanes: how do you write a program with no idea of how it is supposed to work and what it is supposed to look for? (The answer "Extended Logic+Programming Test" is not accepted )

Yes it is, kind of:


If the archive picture is not digital, then "high-definition" does not make any sense.

Suppose 13 Karma represents a professional education in a skill (learning it from 0 to 3). Most people take a couple of years learning such a skill, but then, most people spend karma on other things at the same time (like Knowledge: Holiday Destinations).

Now, if you get a couple of million for a 12 Karma Quickened spell (Force 6, extra karma to make it dispel-resistant). That's not really a bad deal; you can then loaf around for a few years, or focus on things that really interest you like research, instead of doing normal drudge work. You can spend the nuyen on lifestyles and projects that may earn you more karma in the long run.

Spending that 12 karma for a couple of millions is a lot like condensing years of normal work into a few days of work. You put in the same amount of effort that it would take to learn a job, but instead of also having to do the job, you instantly retire.

It's really a matter of discovering what the right price for a point of Karma is. Millions might be too much.

Can't be too low either, or you're putting the cyberware industry out of business.

Or the ever popular though unknown to shadowrunners: the Domestic Active Skills, which include skills like Parenting, Home Improvement/Repair, Cooking, Domestic Finance...

Well they are hi-def archival copies. That sounds digital, but I guess it does not have to be. But reading it myself(which I should have done before bitching) it seems like a clusterfuck of rules. Ritual links from a copy of a astral photograph? Heck even from the photograph itself seems a stretch to me. It removes the duration limitation on signatures, I want to get this for my PCs it is awesomely abusive.

As a side note I don't like one random piece of gear having this large of an implication on how runners now need to run with cleaning up signatures. If it was in the main book this kind of shift from previous editions would be fine, but I can see a lot of people getting caught flatfooted by this since they did not read the manatech in arsenal closely enough.

A little overboard there Shinobi Killfist, Don't you think?

The fact that you can take an Astral Photograph that a mundane can look at is the actual issue, and you need special astral sensitive material to do so... once you have that photograph, you can then create a Digital copy just like any other media... Not seeing a problem here... Why are you?

Keep the Faith...

It think you could make a digital copy of course. But it would just be purity lights and colors. There could be a market for that. But the quicksilver camera gives you glass plates that are ritually linked to the aura they took a picture of. That is why you can use them for assessing. Any copies would probably be done in the old fashion of darkroom technique of literally taking a photograph of a photograph. The copy is of course not as good but with modern optics it is a very good copy. I think the dark room would also need to be mana neutral. They would want to keep the room even closer to the ambient background count then most places are so as to avoid introducing additional astral artifacts into the picture.

The dark room might be built like a bunker underground surrounded by neutral earth. The GM might also rule that the auras eventually fade over the years or months. The auras fading in the low mana area of the archive or absorbing the ambient background aura: confusing the image. The plates also might start absorbing the impressions of each other if they are carelessly stored in a file cabinet or safe all together.

Maybe only the originals last for ever. Or at least if a shadowrunner got a hold of the original he could use it as a ritual link to destroy all the others. Possibly destroying other photos at the same time.

The photos are also probably considered like a foci that is always on and can easily be destroyed in astral combat.

An astral photography archive is probably an interesting place. Strong magic and astral security but probably no magic inside the actual vault room guarded by wards or a dual natured physical barrier.

It sounds like a plot device to me.

A very interesting Plot Device...

Keep the Faith

Well I was basing the Karma = Soul thing on deals with Free Spirits, in particular the whole Karma for Power Spirit Pact. It seems quite Faustian. I always just call essence a body's internal feng shui, or 'magic conductivity' if I'm going arcane scientist rather than mystic.

You can always gain more karma (just by living and working). I don't think you can get more "soul."

karma is I assume in SR just the weight of ones actions witch give you the ability to improve as a person.

Shrug, who knows? Even essence can be restored by a genetic treatment. I'm just saying it's some kind of in-game concept that Mages are aware they possess and aware they're trading away.

If you can make digital copies no I am not going overboard in the slightest. There are barriers that should not be crossed if you want to stay true to the setting, and digital images of astral images is one of them. The physical picture is a stretch and a big one, but at least you can tie it in with the ability to see things psychically(sp?) like when people manifest etc. So it is like a psychic imprint, but a digital copy of a psychic imprint is a shit idea for the SR setting.

Well, I guess that Opinions do differ... But I can see where you are coming from...

Keep the Faith

"High definition" in the context of astral photography clearly just means "good enough to be able to get an astral signature from it" and has nothing to do with making digital copies.

Except that if you read the text, they archive them, which likely means digital formats... and I quote:



It is pretty plain from this text that the technology to create high-definition digital copies of astral photographs has indeed arrived on the scene... Shinobi Killfist laments this fact, but I don't have a problem with that.

Keep the Faith

Where are you seeing the word "digital" in there?

Neither duplicates nor archiving involve technology. For example, Medieval monasteries made duplicates and stored archives of various classical texts.

If you put your "soul" into all manner of unwholesome or trivial skills, what does that say about you as a person?

Also, I'm not entirely comfortable with the suggestion that people IC make such calculated choices about learning/karma expenditure. Do people really choose to only learn from experiences with a clear relation to their long-term plans for power?

Spending karma on a trivial Knowledge skill seems as much a waste of karma as Quickening; do people really IC try to avoid diversity of experience because it would distract from the pure pursuit of mystical enlightenment? That kind of hermit-like behavior is all nice and good for ancient masters on mountaintops, but that's hardly a playable character mentality.

Also, the same principles that would tell you not to put karma in Quickening-for-Pay would tell you not to touch cyber; because it conflicts with all-out spending on magical power.

All in all, it's simply a matter of cost/benefit analysis. How much nuyen is your karma worth? How well do quickened spells compare to the alternatives, in terms of Essence costs and karma costs for alternatives (like bonding foci)?

Karma has to be *something* IC, because spirits trade for it. Saying what it actually is is probably impossible, though.

I think he's assuming digital because of this (and I agree with him):



Put me in the same camp as Shinobi Killfist. They keep getting their cyberwear in my magic. These should not taste great together.

I suppose that works... RPGs are always kind of funny in the IC/OOC mental gymnastics it takes to reconcile real-world learning and IG advancement. In the real world, if you wish to learn a new skill, you don't wonder if you have enough XP saved up. Nor do you have to wait until you achieve a new level. But practical opportunities like time and good teachers and tuition money do indeed apply in the real world, which means karma makes more sense than XP as a term.

Also interestingly, in the real world people tend to become better at the skills much used in practice, rather than saving up all that XP for entirely different skills one wishes to acquire. XP as a limited resource does strange things to your trivial-but-much-used skills.

I'd just "house rule" it if you don't like the karma cost.

I would suggest allowing an initiate to "quicken" any spell with a force up to his grade. When casting the spell the magician must split net successes between the spells effect and the number of hours the spell will be sustained.

This wimps the power enough to justify no karma cost and also removes the perm spell enhancements that make this power so lame.

Example: Johnny, just Johnny wants to up his reflexes. He casts a force 6 improved reflexes spell and scores 4 hits. He splits his successes with 3 for spell effect and 1 for duration. He now has +2 reaction and +2 passes for the next hour and rolls drain.

Initiation is expensive enough without soaking mages to use the metamagic powers they already paid karma for.

Unsustained sustaining? :/

Also remember that Karma does not equal new skills abilities etc. Its potential. I once ran a game for almost a year. The characters accumulated about 150 Karma (SR3). When the group disbanded because people moved away. I later came to learn that the mage character did not spend a single point of Karma!

Maybe, but if you have duplicated something in the Digital Age, My assumption is that the duplicate is going to be Digital... you may disagree, but this is the 2070's... so there you go...

Ancient Monastaries duplicated by hand because they had no other choice... in an era where you can digitize emotions and then experience them at whim, then why are you going to utilize something archaic?

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Isn't that what Quickening works out to be though?

Keep the Faith

Because it's magical and therefore can't be recorded digitally, lol?

Look I'm just saying base this on prior precedents and piece them together. Can't record any other magical phenomena, FAQ says can't even record things people send you over Mindlink via your simrig and those are just normal thoughts and emotions. You want to duplicate and archive this magical photograph.

What's the logical conclusion, that you somehow digitize it because "it's the 2070's" or you duplicate and archive via some mundane means (taking another high astral quality aka 'high definition' photograph of the photograph maybe)?

We should base our conclusions on prior precedent from within the setting and not make a bold assumption based solely on " the duplicate is going to be Digital... you may disagree, but this is the 2070's... so there you go... ". Why even bother with the Quicksilver camera? Why not just take a digital photograph of the aura with your cybereyes to start with, after all It's the 2070's... so there you go..."

Sorry, Tymeaus, I'll be more clear: 'short-term exact replacement for sustaining without the penalty that is the fundamental and only balance?'

It's no different than painting a portrait of what you see on the astral plane. The actual technique for creating a photo is very limited and restricted, only slightly more advanced than spotting a cloud of colored FAB breaking apart as an astral form floats through it.. Sure, you can copy it after the fact, but so what? You can copy a portrait or record someone's description, too. Considering the speed and special requirements of the camera, there won't be astral video cameras any time soon. All it's really good for is taking snapshots of signatures (which could already be recorded by law enforcement via description) and for making books about the astral plane a little more interesting courtesy of the associated photos. Whooptido.

Anchoring is what is really retarded. This is the one-shot-a-lot-of-karma solution. Bah.

Now I can understand why to some people "High Definition" means digital. It is a camera seting for some digital cameras so it precisely fits the resolution of an HD TV. It actually is not a very big resolution.

But it is not as if the term was not used before then when discussing the clarity of an image.

4 a : the action or the power of describing, explaining, or making definite and clear <the definition of a telescope> <her comic genius is beyond definition> b (1) : clarity of visual presentation : distinctness of outline or detail <improve the definition of an image> (2) : clarity especially of musical sound in reproduction c : sharp demarcation of outlines or limits <a jacket with distinct waist definition>

But I can understand why some people think digital copies would work. I think I read somewhere about people making digital copies of a magical thesis or spell formula. But that is just text, words, thoughts. Not all magical thesis can be copied digitally. A thesis that is a sculpture can be copied but only by another sculptor. I can see where you would think that a digital copy is good enough, and it could go either way depending on what a GM thinks makes the best game balance and makes the most sense in terms of the Shadowrun Universe.

I think it is more interesting if the "alchemical processes" on a plate prepared with magical quicksilver and silver is necessary in order to set up the "astral resonance". The process of making Daguerreotype gave you no negatives or ways to make a direct copy. The plate that comes out of the camera is the finished image like a Polaroid. To make a copy you literally take a photograph of a photograph. Like in this video of someone making Contact Printing from Paper Negatives.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W73jNH0eTwE...feature=channel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daguerreotype
The Daguerreotype process is kind of wild. I recommend reading it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiHuO91_ATE...feature=related
Someone actually doing the process. Notice how he is using a fume hood. You don't want to go mad a hatter from all that mercury.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpUsZ8IRjFc
Youtube video of the process as it was originally done.

What the first Daguerreotype cameras looked like.

What the photography looked like. Maybe all the colors of auras are still only seen by people astrally perceiving the image.

What the Quicksilver Camera probably looks like.
Then again the camera may simplify the process so that it is a little bit more like taking a Polaroid. The camera costs 2500 and the book says "the astral photo develops automatically"

To be more accurate: "high-definition" does not make any sense when talking about an analog copy of a photo. The definition of an analog image is the smallest distance that can be told apart. The definition of a copy cannot be higher than the original. So there is no such thing as high-def analog copies. When talking digital, high-df means high enough to keep all the meaningful content of the analog picture.

On a separate note: the picture taken by the quicksilver camera is physical. There is nothing magic left in it. There is no way to prevent it from being scanned. If one wants to maintain the strict separation between magic and technology, they have to make the picture dual-natured. And raise the vehicle resistance to Powerbolts

I would not normally knit pick the wording but resolution is the smallest distance two objects, or dots can be told apart. But the image can still be warped all to heck, as could happen with a photo from a telescope, where atmosphere distorts the image. High definition, is high clarity, as in regardless of the resolution the image displayed is clear and accurate. High definition could mean a digital copy or it could mean a good copy where there are not many artifacts introduced.

The picture can't be purely physical because you can assense it and read an astral signature. Assensing mundane crap you just see an astral shadow, not any aura.

And again I really think the high definition term refers to the picture's astral quality because while it could be a perfect analog copy of the image the taking of the picture also sets the maximum threshold for assensing tests upon it. So when talking magical photography, high-def means high enough to keep all the meaningful astral content of the analog picture.

It would be pointless to archive crappy duplicates (aka perfect analog copies with low astral definition ) with a maximum threshold below 3 since you'd literally not be able to assense anything from it, it would just be a normal photograph with some astral blurs.

Do you literally assense it, or do you use Assensing as a sort of knowledge skill to supplement the Perception? I'm just asking, I haven't read the rules or anything; I try to avoid this magic crap.

You may like it or not, but that's the RAW, and I have already quoted this line.

The text disagrees with you...

AS for using your cyber eyes, they are unable to record something magical... the Quicksilver Camara (Hello, Manatech...) IS capable of producing such things, and then a PHYSICAL representation is created... at which point you can duplicate it... Pretty simple...

Apparently it grates upon your sense of integration of the world, and that is okay... I have absolutely no problem with it myself... In fact, I would bet that in the next few years of Shadowrun, you will start to see more mingling between tech and magic, as ManaTech becomes more prevelant...

Keep the Faith

The rules don't say anything of the sort. You can't just quote something, make up your own assumption and then proclaim "hey, you may not like it but that's RAW".

All the rules say is that it you've got a physical image of the astral and then, by assensing that at a higher threshold, you can assense the objects it is astrally linked to. As the text calls it,



And you're seriously arguing that it's RAW that you can digitally reproduce that astral link because you chose to interpret the words "high definition" in terms of today's digital photography? You've got to be kidding me. If I have a nanofax churn out high definition copies of a focus, can I assense that, too? Hell, do they still work as foci?

You're going to need to explain your position here.



The text says "Characters may attempt to use Assensing to analyze..." not perception supplemented by assensing. That is, apparently, the requirements for actually taking the photo though, described as a Perception + Assense test.

It really does not make sense as something you can digitally copy in the first place because Assesning is not a visual sense, so exactly how is it showing up as a visual image? A physical photo that traps the astral impressions like a fly in amber fine, you can then assense that. But how do you copy digitally a psychic sense, do you set your digital camera to psychic? Your brain while assensing a signature might translate it into smelling like bananas how does that show up in the image either physical or digital. Again as a physical object that is assensed it at least somewhat fits the settings information on magic, digital images don't.

And for the love of god I hope they stop most of this mana tech crap, it is usually poorly thought out with ho logic to the setting and how magic works and goes against core setting concepts which they have done far too much as is.

Most of the manatech seems alright, just clever uses of FAB which, if you accept that bacteria can be dual natured, is all consistent in the setting.

And yes a digital copy of the astral plate is even more ridiculous given the prohibition of Magic in the Matrix. If I open the digital file of the astral image to show a mage in a node with me in the Matrix then he can assenseit lol? Or if I display the digital image using my holoprojector the mage can assense the trid? All of these are things that strictly don't show up in the Astral, you can't even see AR while astrally projecting and you must be astrally projecting to assense.

The whole claim is ludicrous and I've yet to see an actual argument anyway.

Indeed... But now you have a PHYSICAL image (just like a Photograph for all intents and purposes), and you have Large organizations duplicating (Look at that term... Duplicating, Makign Copies) them for archival purposes... Now lets take a real world example... when you archive something in today's technology, do you choose Analog or Digital? Personally, I have been using digital format for the last 15-20 years, how about you? I mean really, Photographs and Literature, the two most common forms of analog archiving for the last hundred years has even gone digital. Now, fast advance to the 2070's, where everything is optical... do you now store things archivally in print format or Digital? Well, if you read the technology of Shadowrun, these processes have been taken completely over by digital formats... Hell, you can even digitize your emotions and store them... Digital storage is so cheap in teh 2070's, you have an effective unlimited amount of digital storage... At that point... if you are going to store something archivally in the 2070's you are going to store it Digitally, unless it is specifically pointed out that you are not.



I am arguing that you can reproduce the image from the Quicksilver plate in a digital format, Yes. It says so right in teh description of the gear. AND, because it is in the 2070's, where everything is stored digitally, it is my assumption that that is how it is done, because it does not specify differently. Can you read the astral signature from the digital copy? Probably not, but that is really irrelevant. The Image is completely uinique, just like DNA or a Fingerprint. the Astral Undertones of the image show emotion as well, which probably do not translate, but maybe they do... After all, it is MANATECH...

Even if the Digital Image cannot be assensed (Like the original can), the image is still unique to the individual signature... Just like a Fingerprint or DNA, so it can be archived and searched just like Fingerprints and DNA. The big difference between the technology of DNA and FIngerprints and the Astral Signature is that you can obtain a DNA or Fingerprint sample in about 1 minute (probably a lot less actually)... the Astral Signature needs 30 minutes and very specialized gear, taht is relatively expensive in comparison to the alternatives used.

As for your foci argument... sure you can create the form of the Foci with a nanoforge all you want... you still need to actually enchant them, and since you created the focus with High-Technology, it will be even harder to do ... good choice of an example there... Remember, the Quicksilver Camera is ManaTech and as such does the work of converting the astral to physical for you, all in one neat little package... you may not like it, but that is EXACTLY what it does. And it does so in such a form that you can duplicate it and archive it... which brings us right back around full circle again.



The requirements for actually obtaining the Image are indeed Perception + Assensing... and yes, My assumption would be that the Image is reviewed by standard Assensing + Stat to determine relevance (with the +2 Threshold of course). but that means absolutely nothing. It will take a specialist to interpret the image... big deal, it takes specialists to interpret the Fingerprints and DNA data as well... so no real change there... and yet, you can automate comparrisons with computers to spit out matches. You can do the same with astral signatures as well, in my opinion...

You have been able to archive astral signatures for a while now (they did it manually based upon descriptive points, up to this point, as was pointed out earlier). With the advent of this new manatech, they can now directly archive astral images (says o in the book) as they have now been able to bridge the Mana/Tech Barrier, even if only by a little bit at this point. You cannot argue whether they are archiving this data, as it states so right in the text. Since it can be archived, it can now be searched. I choose to utilize the interpretation of digital copies, as that is the most efficient archival process in the game (and the default unless otherwise indicated, which it is not in this case... after all, you can find anything in the Matrix, if you look long and hard enough)... The fact that it is archived does not change the game, mainly due to data balkanization, so tht is not a worry either.

I am curious why you are fighting against this so much myself... It does not alter the game world in any effective way other than providing another stop gap to Security forces to keep an eye on magical occurrences and those capable of causing them. Are you uspet that these new capabilities are going to ruin the game? I think that it is a good thing to place more restrictions on mages... they have to be worried about how they cast their magic, and even so, Security forces may still get no actual information because of the length of time that it requires to obtain an Astral Signature Image. It also makes things like Flexible Signature very, very useful as a Metamagic Technique.

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

FAB should not exist in the current system. You should not be lab creating dual natured beings. Magic is better when its fing magic and not tech we haven't figured out yet. Back in the day FAB mostly was fat bacteria it caused a hassle because living things you could not push through astrally none of this it gives me the shivers thing the exceptions were things like microbes which did not have the astral density to stop you. FAB created molecules with enough density to slow astral forms down. Oh and you didn't need awakened ivy, just ivy and astral forms were stopped. You could do normal things to deal with magic without creating magic in a science lab.

You are not duplicating a psychic sense... It is a Psychic sense that has been converted from Psychic to Physical, and can thus be viewed directly, and since it cxan be viewed directly, you can copy it and archive it... even mundanes can see the image generated by a Quicksilver Camera... they just cnnot interpret it very well, because they lack Assensing, but the image is still there (and it is still unique to the Mage that created it)... Since there is a Physical Image, it can be copied and archived...

I get that you do not like the way that ManaTech is going, but I , for one, have no problem with it. it is an interesting area of focus that has been ignored for a very long time, and is definitely something that I think has been missing from the game. Eventually, if Magic is around long enough, technology will find a way to interact and co-exist with it in harmony. They have been moving this way for a long time and now it is here... Honestly, keeping the magic/tech interface stagnant is just boring to me, and does not fit a living world like shadowrun.

Keep the Faith

That is not what I am saying, and you continue to misinterpret it, not sure if you are doing it willfully though... You cannot assence the Digital Copy in any way, shape, or form. What you can do is digitize the image ands then write a program to pull out identifying markers that are unique to each magical signature... since there is an image of it, and it is unique, this is possible... however, to assense the data, you would need the original plate for that purpose (which is also probably filed somewhere for a time just like all evidence is). Would that Plate be NEEDED in a trial, maybe not (depends upon the legal systems in place at the time), as the image may indeed suffice. In fact... I see the image filed from the Crime Scene Plate and a new image taken at the time of incarceration (your Magical Muig Shot so to speak) being compared and if they match (Fingerprints/DNA Anyone?) then that could be enough to convict, just like to day.

Keep the Faith

But the psychic sense is not visual so how do you view it?

Sorry to me this is a huge logical flaw in the entire idea. It is not a visual sense so you can't just look at it.

And to me manatech goes against the entire foundation of shadowrun. It isn't an area that was missing in the game it was an area that was purposely impossible in the game in order to say this is freaking magic its not tech your science is meaningless here. If they had described manatech as a rise in the magic levels so enchanting allowed more things I'd be fine with it. But magic is not science it is magic, when it becomes science I just say eclipse phase is that way now can we return to shadowrun.

I'm not misinterpreting anything, you're the one that's assuming that a picture representation of your aura is like a unique fingerprint or DNA and that it conveys the same information as Threshold 2 Assensing (recognizing an aura you've seen before).

Look, you yourself admit that you can't assense it so the argument is over. Because that image of the aura is basically just a set of Magical Neo-Post-Modern art without being able to assense it. To even recognize the aura there you need to Assense it, even to interpret the mood and health of the subject is a threadhold 1 Assense test, which you admit you can't do.

To make useful duplicates of the astral photograph you cannot use digital means. If you want to catalog worthless pretty pictures then go ahead, it's the astral signature that's unique and if you can't assense it you can't use the picture for anything other than decorating your wall.

So just to make this clear: The text (RAW) specifically says you must Assense the photograph to analyze it. You openly admit you cannot assense any digital copy. Therefore, a digital copy is not in any way unique nor useful for crime solving purposes.

Edit:



You don't just view it! Looking at it does nothing, you have to Assense it! The picture might as well not even be there, the picture is just storing the "astral resonance" of the entity.The rules specifically say you must assense the damn thing.

Your theory is like claiming you can make a photocopy of a lemon and the digital image will later let you smell and taste the citrus flavor of the lemon.

Edit2:

You asked earlier why I'm being so adamant about this, I don't really care about the interaction between magic and technology, it's kinda cool IMO. What I do care about is you making a very logically wrong claim, shouting that it's RAW and saying ridiculous things like "of course it's digital, I'd always prefer to make a digital copy". Yes I would prefer that too, if it were possible. Too bad the rest of the in-universe material says it's not possible to digitally assense anything.

Clearly the answer to whether or not a digital copy of a Quicksilver photograph can be used in the manner in which you are proposing is an answer best left to the GM. I don't think you kids are going to reach a resolution here...