That's really not the point.

I've updated the first 2 posts, with the new fight. While this doesn't resolve anything, and I'm sure more than a few of you will point out errors I made in calculation, I think it clearly shows the benefits of Stick-N-Shock, as well as Ex Explosive ammo. My only disappoint was that I wasn't able to critically glitch an EX Explosive attack.

You can't make a called shot when firing full auto.

Full auto or burst?

It has to be SS, SA, or BF mode or a melee attack to use a called shot (SR4A pg 161).

Well, a *long* burst is technically Full Auto, right? So no.

Thought a long burst was technically a burst.

It is a burst. So is a full burst. Both require FA mode.

Yes, but there's a short burst, long burst, and Full Auto.
3 rounds, 6 rounds, 10 rounds I thought.

Or am I mixing up FA with suppressive fire?

Sort of. There's (Short) Burst, Long Burst, and Full *Burst*.

Short is BF; Long and Full are both FA.

FA may not be used with Called Shot.

...aaaaand SnS kicks all kinds of ass and wins the day. Ex-Ex leaves Ghost in a pool of his own guts! Surprised? Hardly.

Man, those Red Samurai are really dangerous.

I forgot that they had three (3!) initiative passes!

Thats 9 passes vs 3... I am amazed that Ghost made it out alive at all.

The incapacitation from SnS in the first example was what made the fight for him. The initial damage on the Ex-Ex just didn't have the stopping power and mods required to save his skin.

The -2 from stick and shock is an equivalent of 6 extra boxes of wounds that Ex-Ex would need to deal out.

Indeed.

That has been the stiff, tightly drawn leather drum that I have been hammering on every time this SnS > All Other Ammo crap comes up.

6 boxes of damage in equivalent mods is really hugely awesome.

Yeah, in the EXEX example he missed one of his shots in the first round that caused him some heartache, but Stick-n-Shock seems pretty effective for controlling a group of enemies. Also, in writing these I've realized that forcing a 'full dodge' is nearly as effective as taking a target out.

-DrZaius

Now you know why I consider the "dodge" skill nearly useless!

My GM once had it in his head (and it is a reasonable house rule) that if you spent an action (not as a reactive-borrow) to dodge, then your Full Dodge bonus lasted until the end of the round (not the pass), thus granting the benefits of having dodged while still allowing you to perform more actions with your remaining passes.

It depends on your objective. If you're outgunned, not-dying is your objective, and I'll take the Full Dodge, please! If your objective is to let your teammates kill the people *trying* to kill you, Full Dodge kthx! Etc.

1v1? Maybe not so much. Unless you tranq'd him and have to wait for the effect to kick it, or something like that.

Dodge is mostly usful when you are the one being engaged. It buys you enough time to leap into cover.

Not to mention the athletics skill group is generally useful for other things as well, plus synthacardium (at 10,000 per level, max level 3 at chargen) is more cost effective than spending your BP on dodge (6 BP for rating 3 Synthacardium, vs. 12 BP for rating 3 Dodge). So long as you have the essence to spare and aren't close to hitting the 50 BP gear cap, I'll take the Athletics skill group 1, Synthacardium 3 instead of Dodge 4 please.

The Dodge skill is really only useless if you never underestimate your opponents, never have people get the drop on you, never have to fight while out numbered or never have to avoid melee attackers such as ghouls (you really, really, really don't want to just soak hits from ghouls). Which is to say, that it's not really useless at all, provided you do things that are harder than what passes for a milk run in the games I've played.

Let's not do the Gymnastics versus Dodge thing here, though. I think we're all pretty aware.

I would think that 'not dying' would be the primary goal of any shadowrunner.

I don't roll a character without Dodge. Defaulting on a test to not get shot strikes me as against the natural selection.

Yeah, sometimes it's a hell of a lot easier to just dodge your way out of the path of an oncoming Citymaster and run like hell than it is to try and hose the thing down with your machine pistol. Dodge isn't something you want to have to depend on, and ideally you take the threat out before they get a chance to harm you, but I still have a hard time crapping on a skill that's kept many a runner from being a greasy smear.

Ok, true. But I've never had a situation where it's come up. The last time it came up, it came up for my teammates. Because all of them charged into combat like vikings while I ducked behind a bar counter as a move action (guess who got shot*).

*You'd only be half right, the fully correct answer is the melee-fail vampire who took a shotgun to the chest and went "its ok, I have regeneration." And then took a second one and was out cold for five minutes.

Yes, but were you really saved from attacks by cover modifiers or were you saved by just not getting targeted? Because there's fluff and tactical reasons to not shoot at the guy in cover first: Fluff wise, it stands to reason that people tend to shoot the obvious threat first. In terms of pure gamesmanship, all things being equal, you'd shoot the guy who's out of cover first even if he was no easier to hit than his pals behind the counter. That's because characters firing from cover receive a dice pool penalty to their attacks-- they're safer, sure, but they're also mildly less dangerous. Thus one of the benefits of cover is typically that you end up getting pushed down the "threat list," which is admittedly very handy for characters who aren't built to soak like a samurai, but it does tend to result in a false sense of security. Versus truly dangerous opposition you're going to want cover AND Dodge if you don't want to get perforated. Without a combination of both it's all too easy for people to just whittle your pool down with a wide burst and roll for a big chunk of successes. Granted, enough lead flying in anyone's direction will take them down eventually, but personally, I prefer to make sure they at least have to throw a few pounds of rounds my way before my samurai bites the big one.

Not getting targeted.