Indeed, there are plenty of holes in the armor rules even without mentioning vehicles or drones at all.

Agreed. I think it's funny how much they streamlined the system for 4E, but in the process they left three times as many shady areas,loopholes, and over sights. For every 10 minutes my game runs smoother because of a streamlined system, I lose 10 minutes because of misleading, ridiculous, or flat out contradictory rules. You can't win in this industry.

Ghost Cartels has the armor jacket stacking.

GOSH SPOILERS!

I just started reading Ghost Cartels, and anymore finding the rules inconsistencies is half the fun for me.

After checking into this, the core book wording for armor stacking applies only to worn armor. Vehicle armor isn't worn armor. So.... just think of it like a troll's natural 1 armor. Except a cyborg likely has more than 1.

Which I'm okay with. You can easily do worse with cyberlimb armor, and, well, an otomo is made entirely out of cyberlimbs. Because its a cyborg. (It still can't take more than 6 armor without taking the speed hit, and has none to start with.)

It seems that it'd be actually BETTER mechanically to not install any vehicle armor into an Otomo at all, and just have it wear FFBA + Armor Jacket + possibly Cyberarmor.




-karma

It is more expensive, more illegal, more obvious, more protection and more adaptable. Seems like a fair trade off.

Is it?

Armor Jacket.....8/6, 900¥, Avail 2, comes in a wild variety of styles some very unobstrusive
FFBA................6/2, 1600¥, Avail 8, mostly hidden under other clothing unless you put on the gloves/hood

Total................14/8 B/A, costs 2,500¥, pretty much totally legal and can look like normal clothes

Contrast:

Concealed Vehicle Armor 10.....10/10, 10,000¥, Avail 12R, Conceal -4

So, wearing instead of installing is LESS expensive and LESS illegal. Concealability I'd call similar, protection is better Ballistics wise, and it's still more adaptable.



-karma

I'll have to dig up some rules to confirm this, but my first thought on reading it was "thank god." All I saw was the rules in Arsenal stating a "drone" could go up to three times it's body rating, or a max of 10 with concealed armor.

From a more "in character" standpoint, I imagine an Otomo would keep it's synthetic limbs and just stack cyber armor in them (rules wise it runs at a body/str 6 base, so while you could theoretically increase that stuff, I imagine it'd be fine without). Adding drone/vehicular armor feels a little "hardcore" despite being mechanically the same. Mostly because cyber armor is meant to work with a limb that is designed with all of the range of motion metahumanity has, drone/vehicular armor isn't.

This leaves modslots for more interesting things. Increasing it's mimic option to make it blend in better with people. Perhaps a chameleon coating to better throw people off track ("there's something not quite human about that dude... well I dunno, looks like he got a tan over the weekend...") or perhaps for changing skin color for disguise options. Not to mention improved sensor array seems like a must (sensor being a chunk of it's roll for combat if I remember correctly) as the 3 it starts with doesn't seem that great.

Could an Otomo take an equivalent of Engine Customization? It says "All" and it seems fairly logical that you could increase it's movement speed in case it needed it.

I need your clothes. Your boots. And your motorcycle.

They did. They're called the MCT Housekeeper and the Saeder-Krupp Heimdrone. Remember, the Manservant-III is equipped with the shutdown button and the inability to kick - it never mentioned other similar models. S&K and MTC didn't have the Arcology Incident.

Did they errata the availability for an Otomo yet? As 24 seems a bit steep for something you can actually legally rent.

I don't imagine they will errata the availability. While it may be a legal item, it is a legal item used for cyborgs. Remember that availability and legality aren't a direct correlation. I'd imagine with Cyborgs being so cutting edge (and if I recall right, not even common knowledge) that both supply and demand for the Otomo is very low.

The availability for it is R and not R. That means anyone with a permit and the money can buy one legally. The rating 24 is to get one illegally. This seems odd that it would be so hard to get.

Again, the availability is so high because there probably aren't a lot of them. As in, total, in the world.

Heisman Trophies aren't illegal, but I'll be damned if you could get your hands on one without it being given to you.

given the advertising for cyborgs, I'm thinking they are more common then you might suspect

I'm sure I could find you an advertisement for Bently Automobiles, doesn't mean I've seen any on the road or that anyone would have the stones to steal one.

Simply because something is "advertised" doesn't mean it's readily available to Joe Public. This is reinforced as the Otomo, Tomino, and Akiyama share the exact same availability rating of 24R, and the lowest availability cyborg related anything is the vehicle mod Cyborg Adaptation which rests at a hefty 18.

Yes, you could order one through the company with a permit. This brings up two problems. As the item is obviously not in heavy supply, there could be a waiting period (definitely for the Otomo as I'm sure you specify race, height, weight, looks, coloration, dimensions yadayada when ordered). Secondly you are attempting to order bleeding edge tech from a high end company and who the hell are you to have a Cyborg permit? I'm sure it isn't something you go to a weekend class for, and I'm sure they'll be checking pretty scrupulously for false certs.

Simply put, the impression I've gotten from virtually every piece of Cyborg related fluff I've read is that they are toys of the insanely rich and powerful. So while I recommend giving another look to your high-end Johnson's sexy, unblinking secretary, I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for one.

I confess I've put a LOT of thought into this. I desperately want to play a Riggurai, a Rigger dedicated to using his Otomo's decked out Cyberbody to fulfill the team's Street Sam needs. If it ever does happen, it'll likely be after months of play waiting for one to fall off the back of a truck.

While I do understand the high availability, and I do understand the restricted nature of handling stuff meant for brains in jars, I don't understand why there isn't a rigger adapted mass marketed version.

actually, provided you can buy stuff legally, you can ignore the availability rules.

so, if you have a legitimate license to own an otomo body (or, more likely, a sufficiently good fake license) you can simply buy an otomo.

now, granted, fake licenses aren't really all that good. but if you can hack into the system that's checking your fake license, i bet it'll be a lot more likely to not notice any discrepancies

I'd addressed most of that. The point of the post wasn't that you couldn't buy one legitimately, the point of the post was the flesh out why the availability is so high on the black market.

Seeing as I am a Shadowrunner, I'm not going to be doing legal things with my Otomo. You can feel free to buy your guns from a legitimate vendor as well, I'm just saying it wouldn't be a good idea to go committing crimes and running the shadows with said guns. Same goes for the Otomo only, being a much more rare item, it will likely be easier for everyone to trace from it's point of legitimate purchase.

Shoot Straight

Conserve Ammo

Never Deal with a Dragon

Don't commit felonies with off the shelf 'ware

well, if you use a fake SIN, and you never plan on using that SIN again (which you may wish to strongly consider when purchasing an otomo, since it's a very distinctive item) it isn't necessarily a problem. if the cops come looking for the person who bought the otomo, they find that the person in question does not exist. they might know that you used the false identity at some point, but if you never use it again, no big deal.

(on most of your gear, you should be able to anonymise it; file off serial numbers, erase all the RFIDs, etc... the problem with the otomo is that they're all customised, iirc, so making it not obviously yours will be a lot more difficult... )

Yeah, problem becomes security cameras on site, eyewitness descriptions of you blah blah blah. That kind of stuff is not so bad when using a pistol or car you purchased legit as the cops would have to ask around an awful lot.

They have an issue with an Otomo and it narrows the parameters an awful lot. "You guys remember the person who ordered the big Ork Otomo with the 'Pobody's Nerfect' tattoo on it's potbelly?" I think best idea would be to create an identity specifically for it's purchase, potentially one requiring a disguise for any comm calls or meetings during the ordering process, and then never use it again. Just wanting the Otomo and not the brain would probably make things less messy in the long run as well.

Certainly not an impossible hurdle, just one I wouldn't risk personally.

Bright side is, it is an Otomo. You could probably put it through an awful lot to keep it secret and change it's appearance after market. You not only have a lot of drone accessories, but most likely a lot of cyber could be used as well, all while conceivably keeping a metahuman appearance if you're careful. Heck, no one would even know it is an Otomo if you kept it in Full Body Armor to use in bug/ghoul hunts.

Question becomes (whether "legally" or illegally obtained), what the hell is the thing made of? How hard is it going to be to install new stuff in the limbs without 'tech support?' How hard is it going to be to repair cosmetic damage in it's 'skin' after a couple rough gunfights? One part of me wishes they fleshed these things out a lot better, the other part of me thinks it's better if we just don't think about stuff like that.

i think the biggest issue people have with the manservant is its movement speed (half that of the other humanoid drones), and that issue carries over to the similar models as there is no alternate stats for them (at least not officially).

still, grab a drone in the body 3 or so range, add walker, arms and mimic 1, and if it wears a long coat and a hat i suspect no one would suspect it a modified drone at a casual glance.

I'm pretty sure 'similar models' are usually meant to be considered rules-identical, especially for a crippling flaw.

I'm still not clear on Mimic's limitations. If you add legs to a Doberman, I don't think you could make it look like a metahuman.

So is it me, or is there no way to increase the Body of a drone?

Sorry, but some Mitsuhama Otomo with 18 Points of hardened armor?
Even a drone should not be able to take an shot of an assultcannon to the Face.

And the Mitsuhama Tomino could not be shot down with a Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle.
(Not even a LAW would scratch this thing.)

Sorry, but there is something off.
A Sam should be able to take down a drone and not beg the mage to use a powerbolt.

Isn't Sidecar the only way to increase the Body of any vehicle? Or is that your point.

So would you be able to bill R2D2 as a sidecar to C3PO? +3 Body is pretty significant, and it seems Body is a good thing to have. Worth creating an absurdity?

Nope. But, a motorcycle *drone* would work. Don't add Body to a drone, just start with a different vehicle.

Yeah, I noticed that the Body of drones is chronically low, and that motorcycles-as-drones might be a viable substitution.

Well, DotA has a TM with a Biofeedback Filter as CF

I guess the rule checking for campaign books is not as thorough as it is for rule books.

There was a mod which wasn't published. It added a point of body and cost 1 slot. So net gain was 1 body. Had up to rating 3 I think.

double post.

Yes it can. You can't have 18 points of smart armor and all non-smart armor is halved before taking a minus 10.

(18 / 2) - 10 = 0.

That drone has 0 armor (+Body) to resist a Really Big Gun (18P?).

Even at 18 points of smart armor (I believe you are limited to 10?), you're only adding 8 + ~6 to resist.

In this case we're not talking about Drones, we're talking about Cyborgs (that could theoretically be modified to be rigged as drones). Yes it's splitting hairs, but the situation is a little different when it is a machine meant for a living brain to be put in. Look on the bright side, Cyborgs are the "fair" side of the cyberzombie coin. It could be 18+ armor AND ItNW, compared to their Cyberzombie brethren Cyborgs are downright reasonable.

The Tomino is supposed to be a heavy combat drone, the Rapid Response Team of your nightmares. Really, with how broken the armor stacking rules are in 4E in general, 18 armor isn't really a lot at all. An Adept can start with 18+ armor right out the gate, so comparing it to a nonliving metal body -- meant to house a brain-in-a-jar that was specifically built and put together to serve as bodyguards, heavy combat units, or time traveling child-assassins -- really isn't as bad as you make it sound.

Armor, and armor stacking, in 4E is a little asinine by RAW, I'm honestly surprised you're upset about 18 for a cyborg. It seems a lot more reasonable than a normal meatbody having that much armor at a fraction of the cost because he can layer the stuff right. Now that is silly.


In the case of the case of the 'drones' we're discussing here they are technically constructed entirely out of cyberlimbs, which may be modded as such. They could get Body enhancements that way, although I've always thought the rules for putting Armor and stat increases into cyber limbs were a little vague and the ways I've seen them interpreted border on the ridiculous.

I'm kind of glad the standard drone seems stuck with a body of 4. They can add 3x that in armor (up to 10 concealed armor or 12 nonconcealed), this is giving a standard "throw away" drone is an awful lot, a Wuxing Red Samurai starts with this much soak power at the low price of 9,500.

On the one hand, it limits the staying power of drones. On the other it discourages a 'zerg rush' styled rigger and promotes tactical thinking on a risk vs reward basis.

EDIT: And while I've got the book in front of me:


Correct.

I don't think a cyborg chassis *isn't* a drone, though. Anyway, increasing the (cyberlimb) Body rating would help with damage, but I don't think it helps with vehicle things (mod slots, ramming, etc.).

To be clear, every vehicle is a drone. If you need one with a higher body than 4, get a car, motorcycle, etc. You'll need to upgrade their Matrix attributes to make them competent, of course; if you plan to Remote Control/Jump In, you don't.

@Chainsaw Samurai

Quite simple.
Lets take you adept with 18 Armor, body 7(Ork) and reaction 4. I guess it is ok.

He is going to face a Sam with an AK-98, Skill 3 and agility 5 and Smartlink. Lets give him some explosiv ammunition(+1) for the fun of it.
Upgrade the rifel with some of recoil reduction (gas vent 3, personalized
grip and a shock pad. Should now be around 5)

This guy is shoots the adept with a long narrow burst. (recoil 4 pool 10 reaction 4, lets assume one net hit)
This means the adept is hit for 6+1+9+1=17 S. He will soak a lot but he still is getting around 6-7S.
The cyborg on the other hand would not get a single point of damage)

In all fairness the Borg does cost 150K, and has an availability of 24.

@Mordinvan
That is still not the point. Honestly it is ok, the borg may shrug off an Ak.
But it is not "OK", that it can shrug off an assult cannon.
If you need a freaking LAW to take down a Sextoy, there is something wrong. (AP -6)

On the other hand it is kind of funny.
-The Johnson wants to meet us in a high class bordel? Let me check my gear. Kondoms, check. Law, check.
-What?
-Safety first

actually, an assault cannon with anti-vehicle rounds (which you might just want for shooting something that is, after all, a vehicle) are DV 10P and -8 AP vs vehicles... meaning you can punch right through 18 armor no problem.

pulling a bazooka out of your pants, priceless (just dont mix it up with that other bazooka)

Bazooka you say?

Thunderstruck actually makes mince meat out of a tomino fairly quickly:
18/2 - 4 = 5 points of armor, 10P is double that
Vehicle needs at least 27 points of armor to not take damage from a gauss rifle gettint the minimum of 1 nethit.

@Mäx
You may upgrade the tomino to armor 30, due to it's body of 10.
So you would look at: 30/2-4= 11.
Well, you would need 3 net hits.
That was my point. It strikes me as silly. If drone armor woul be limited to body, it would be ok with me.

Max armor is 20.

What about building a drone purely from cyberlimbs? Just take a a torso, legs, arms and skull and glue them together?

Right, it is caped. Thats definity a good thing.

There is always ablative smart armor (10) to add to normal one. Helps with anti-armor weaponry (Even though the rules are a bit strange).

*how to delete a post?*

You can't 'build a drone out of cyberlimbs', because you can't build a drone *at all*. We only have modification rules, not creation rules. Rigger 4, alas!

If "by a little strange" you mean "make no sense" unless you go back to the 3rd Edition rules and extrapolate.

The RAW of 4e is that "smart armor reduces AP" when "making AP a smaller number" means it gets worse (because it's negative). When what they should have said was that smart armor adds to other armor ((A+B)-C == A - (C + B)).

And then there's the dice part. Ugh. I still have no idea what they meant to put there. Getting more hits "adds" armor (good) and at the same time "lowers" the value of the smart armor (by the same amount) for later hits (bad) and a critical glitch (REALLY BAD) only reduces the SM value by 1 (same as as if you'd rolled 1 hit, only you don't get the +1 armor).