Except that my examples were 8-9 from the System I used...

However, even a Rating 7 Program is 16.5% more effective, which is hardly "Barely" in my opinion...

Yes, it is just a single Die extra, but that is a mechanic, which has no place in the descriptives of the game... the two should stay seperate in my opinion... Asking me how good of a Programmer I am in game would get you a response along the line of "I am a Professional." or "I have been doing it for a while." What it would not get you is: "Oh, I have 15 Dice..."

There is a common disconnect in the game to default to the Mechanical Descriptives, rather than the Fluffy in-game desrciptives. This does the game a serious disservice in my opinion.

For those saying that banks aren't a big deal... you do realize that if the bank were to get hacked into, a hacker could divert trillions of nuyen of funds? Honestly, I think that would be an even bigger deal than an R&D center that might be worth a few million. I figure banks would have better security than anything, perhaps even the military.

@sleep Oh, I agree that a TM could get on a commlink and operate it (0 skill), I'm just saying they wouldn't be able to operate it at the high level they use their CFs at (4-6 skill). I just used the 'file->print' as an example. Personally I think Software, Computer, Data Search, Cybercombat, and Hacking (Maybe Electronic Warfare) should (clearly) be divided into TM and Mundane versions, and a TM has the TM version and can't use the Mundane version without separate training, and a Mundane can't use the TM version at all. The TM version doesn't work unless the TM is using their living persona and complex forms.

As for the aboriginal example, I sent you a rather long PM about that.

Zurich-Orbital isn't just A bank.

It's THE bank.

If Z-O went down it would create a massive impact in the world economy.

Also, it's not JUST the bank.

It's the seat of the Corporate Court.

So Z-O pretty much has the top of the line absolute best defenses of anywhere.




-k

The example from the book is ZO NYC Terrestrial Substation (not the actual ZO itself), but still… exactly.

Though I would agree that the Orbital Facility does indeed have that level of security, The Terrestrial Station does not... The fact that Ultraviolet Nodes do indeed exist, with attributes and computing power 10+ should indicate that there are indeed facilities out there with those very same attributes... The Zo-TS is not at that level, though the Orbital station should indeed be.

The book says that the ZO NYC isn't a pushover. It is *itself* a massive economic target. It has the best security the book shows us. It's not a UV, because it's intended to serve users, but a UV is a wholly different thing, and not relevant. The point of all this is that this incredibly important target has only ratings of 7-8; that's already beyond the range of runners, let alone 12, let alone 12+.

I would really like to cut back programs so that 1-3 is regular, 4 is runner, 5-6 is milspec/prime runner.
7+ is ZO

To put more emphasis on skill and stat? The intent, I assume, was to make the hacker actually buy some gear; pirated software (and the registration rules, etc.) pretty much destroyed that, though. Whoops.

They wanted to make hackers have to spend money on the same level as streetsams and riggers.
They figured, a 1 time cost of 12k, and then a recurring monthly bill of 1.2k nuyen would be appropriate. And in some ways it is. They needed to make rating 4-6 software more expensive, and higher rating.

Having Rating 6 software available at char gen was a bad idea.

Starting Hackers basically start at 4IP and almost completely maxed out dicepools for their primaries.

There are things they can pick up. But not that many.
Yes, there's a ton of cyber a hacker might want, and hackers really are supposed to go sideways, picking up other roles.

And then of course, you've got Technomancers who don't start maxed out.. but can boost themselves to basically twice the effectiveness of a full hacker.

But then we have to cut down the technomancer AND especially the sprites back, too.

I'd be fine if Sprites didn't exist. Stupid 'let's make Technomancers identical to mages except online' rules. Hehe.

Technowhats?
Never heard of them

You must be talking about some incredibly broken magical archetype.

Except if they were just like mages, they'd only buy a CF once and it would automatically become more powerful whenever they increased resonance, allowing them to "over hack" and so on. Really the only thing that mages and TMs have in common is the similarities between spirits and sprites, and drain/fading, and even those work differently. Mages spirits are from sunrise to sunset or the other way around, sprites are around for 8 hours (or until the completion of a registering attempt). Mages need to spend money to summon and bind spirits, TMs only need time. Etc etc etc.

The resonance and initiate rules are literally a copy/replace job.
Echos work exactly like Metamagics.

The only difference is that Technomancers start at Initiate Grade 1, and Mages at 0

Depends how far you're abstracting things.

Sunrise-sunset, 8 hours - a "work" day. In most cases these are effectively the same for players, as many shadowruns are measured in at most 3-4 hours of significant activity a day.

Money vs time - both are resources.

and so on.



-k

Tiny details, SleepIncarnate.

I admit, one of my thoughts for Mages.. is that spell formulae are set to a specific Force.

So you don't buy Stun Bolt, you buy Stun Bolt F3, or Stun Bolt F4. if you want to cast it at a higher force, you need to get a new formulae, or create a new formulae using the lower force formulae as a starting point.

That's the old way. I thought it worked fine, and forced a tiny bit of planning ahead. You could maybe allow undercasting, for convenience. A problem is that there are a hundred spells, and it's such a pain. You really only need a handful, though.

I'd like to see more specialization in mages
and less, I've got every useful spell in the book.

Did someone already mention that the OP can't code his own program and then *buy* Optimization to add to it? I never noticed that he'd asked about that until now.

He'd have to code optimization into it.. adding to the overall threshold numbers. Wouldn't he?
Actually no, it doesn't say that. You're coding each optimization separately from the original program (how weird is that)

You code it separately, but *you* code it. You can't *buy* Options to add later.

The reason you code optimization separately is because it's an 'upgrade' (just like all Options). You take the source code of the program and work on it.

So.. how do you get options on Registered software?

They come with them, you buy it all together.

Ok that's what I thought. You're buying the optionized program as one big bundle.

First, I'm assuming the writers intended optimization to allow programs beyond six. I can't imagine any other reason for them allowing Optimization to Rating 6 (I've never heard of a System 0 computer before). If they didn't want programs past 6, why not limit Optimization to 5?

Second, to my understanding, you have to have the Optimization before you can write the program. One of the limitations of writing your own program is that your computer must theoreticall be able to run it and you can't unless you have the Optimization option.

Third, since program optimization is described as an add-on, I'm presuming you can buy and implement it at any time.

Finally, I understand the concerns about power, however, it really limits hackers. It's simple (especially with Pirated programs) to max out your hacker abilities fairly early, if not at character creation, and then you're kinda stuck in terms of advancement. There are a few add-ons you might want and skills you can bump up to six but realistically you're hacker is as good as he's gonna get by the first few sessions and you're stuck. I guess the most frustrating part is that the super-programs seem to easy to code. In 3rd you could develop more powerful programs but it took a lot of time, even with ton's of skills and stuff. Now it seems that anyone who is willing to develop their software skill and buy the right stuff can easily get super-powerful programs.

a year of downtime for your character is 'easily'?

Software 4, Programming Suite 5, Logic 8, rating 3 logic boosting nanoware w/ nanohive=20 dice, 22 within specialization and a nexi to do programming

Threshold for a rating 12 hacking program is 24, say two months, reduced to 1 month with nexi.
Optimization is threshold 6, so another 2 weeks
Half that time for a common program like analyze, so 1 month with optimization.
Sleep Regulator means you still have a life outside programming.

Yeah, that's a lot of gear added together but most of the really expensive stuff has other uses. A month and a half for rating 12 Stealth program ain't bad.

You really think you're getting 12 hits a roll on 22 dice? it's going to take you 3 to 4 intervals to get 24 hits.

So you're talking about 2 months while using a nexus programming environment.
I admit when I was thinking a year, I was looking at System and autosofts and the like.

But alright, 2 months to make Stealth 12 Optimized.
Every month you have to spend 3 days patching it.

So, if it's that easy for you?
Why the hell are corporations not running strictly on Rating 12 stuff?

Yeah, just because it's possible by the rules does not mean it makes sense.

The fluff makes it clear that even rating 5 programs are uncommon in the SR universe, and Rating 6 is pretty rare. Rating 7+ is darn near unattainable for individuals.

The actual rules, however, don't reflect this. Even just purchasing, it's not THAT hard to get Rating 6 stuff. And programming skills make Rating 7+ not all that impossible.

So there's a disconnect.



-k

rating 6 stuff is availability 12.. well within access of a starting character.
Availability should probably be something more like Rating^2 instead of Rating x 2

System and Firewall have a 0 availability. They should be Rating x 3

Why not just increase the multiplier by 1 or 2? So instead of Rating x2, it's Rating x3 or x4?

That would put a Rating 4(runner quality) program at the requisite Availability, 12, and the nastier stuff at 15 and 18. Or, Rating 4/5/6 at 16/20/24.

Rating^2 I think escalates the Availability a bit TOO fast. Rating x 3 would probably be sufficient.

Programming should probably have included the explicit limitation of "Rating 7+ programs can only be coded with GM's permission."



-k

Sure, use the easy multiplication method

X 4 would work

That puts R5 within grasp of a restricted gear quality.

of course, you now have to re-work technomancers completely. But then, if they weren't' allowed to thread cfs to a 12 to begin with, noone would be trying for r12 software.

Give the TM cancer if he fails his Body+will resistance roll on CF's above his Resonance. I dunno.

Yeah but he can get his resonance to a 12.

The thing is. A technomancer could summon up 2 F12 sprites, and say. Hey.. guys.. go make ZO destabalize and burn up on re-entry. And There's not much of anything ZO could do about it. Given that their top of the line stuff is R8.

ZOG has the power of GM fiat, though. Their earthly counterpart may have stats, but ZOG still doesn't AFAIK.

Oh your right, just the Terrestrial Substation in NYC

still, I'm looking at their setup and it's.. bunk

7 guys on duty at all times?
9 agents..
it seems light for the terrestrial substation of NYC

all this to cover 16 nodes?

Also.. what exactly does a persona limit of 25 do for you in this case?

I still don't think they thought through what a persona limit even means.
You can have 25 people with direct trode connections to the nexus?

Persona limits are stupid and worthless.
Instead what they should have done was that persona limits limited how many people could be connected to the nodewith their ICON actively running in said node.
then up the persona limits a little.

Because /everyone/ has a commlink, everyone.

I'll just throw this out there again.

It's not perfect, of course, but I tried to set a foundation that was more solidly founded so that street level hackers were viable and that hacker advancement existed by pushing the "best" stuff up out of the range of a starting character (sort of how a street sam COULD start with delta wired reflexes III if they really want to, but at the expense of that being their only gear).

Yeah, I didn't like that hacking system.
Not sure I can put a finger on why.. just.. seemed off to me

What if you put those personnel stats per node?

Sounds better then, amirite?

@Draco: Woo! Something fun to read. Will review and comment in a bit, trying to get my Matrix knowledge back up to snuff and this stuff already looks good.

Yes Per Node is better.

But I still don't understand what the point of the Persona Limit on a Node even is.

25 non-GOD Commlink ID's per node. Everyone else is in the waiting line.

Since most transactions don't take long, 400 ID's cycle through pretty fast. It also allows GOD to closely monitor those ID's requesting access - restricting it to major bank and corporate transactions.

but that's not how it works.



IE: anyone running from their commlink doesn't count against the persona limit.

I see what you mean. One way it makes more sense is to do as you described and change the persona limit to an access limit.

The other thing is that ZOG-Terrestrial may require everyone accessing it to do so at the site. Which would...suck, to say the least.

And doesn't make any sense.

I imagine that ZOG only deals with countries, banks and AA+ corps.

I always envisioned ZOG as a Global Reserve.
When Countries, Banks, and AAA corps need to shift money between each other, and to balance the books at the end of everyday they do so through ZOG.

But then, I have serious issue with electronic currency in the first place.

Yes, there is no point to Persona Limits.

One option, if needed, is to make the program Thresholds tiered. Just like some things cost X for Rating 1-3, and Y for Rating 4-6, you could make the Avail/Legality/Threshold/etc. be Z for Rating 7+.

And that's fine too. I had to make a number of compromises in order to deal with many of the issues that a hacking "subgame" creates (such as it BEING a subgame just due to the speed*) but at the same time trying to make it difficult, if not impossible, to hack a high security computer while being shot at. While also making security actually mean something (see footnote).

So yes. It does things in many different directions, but I tried my best to cover the major issues that hacking presents (without enabling brain hacking which I disagree with).

*Which changed in SR4 or SR4A to being combat rounds, which makes every computer ever hackable in seconds.



Thanks!

I would agree. ZOG is the global reserve, and handles the back-end transactions that ensure all partial reserve banks have the numbers to cover the billions of transactions they handle daily.

I also remember your issues with electronic currency, and that's a seperate thread.

That is already how it is though, KarmaInferno... It takes the GM's permission to program such things, as they are solely under the control of the GM in the first place...