Barely. Or, replace with even rarer things, like pixie corpses, or whatever.

Alergy, Sever: one billion dollars in pennies.

Heh... Got it...

Allergies don't come in "barely ever encountered". They come in common, and uncommon. Taking an allergy for a ludicrously rare substance is botched munchkinism. Either the GM will disallow it, or the GM will go out of his way to vindictively have you encounter the supposedly rare substance every adventure.

But there's a difference between trying to game the system with ludicrous allergies or incompetencies (incompetent: aerospace or some such), and using an obviously superior option from the book. People will pick sensitive system, get muscle toner: 4 with the restricted gear quality, use smartlinks, cast manabolt, and so on. It's not munchkinism - it's having some common sense and seeing that a few things in the book are pretty damn blatantly superior choices. It's like when AD&D introduced double specialization - every fighter got it. If you think it gives too much of an advantage too cheaply, then again, just disallow it, nerf it, or make it more expensive. That's what I would do with emotitoys and empathy software, for example.

There have been so many arguments here on Dumpshock that an adept who does not have implants (particularly certain ones) is severely limited and will function less efficiently than one who has them. Anybody who wanted to play a non-implanted adept was told something like "Sure, if you wanna, but she's a waste."

It always seemed to me then that a player who wanted to have a 'purist' adept could make a case for the use of Sensitive System both as fluff to explain why the adept is not tricked out like the hottest runner adepts and as recompense for the 'weaknesses' he has chosen.

So that's why kryptonite pops up so often in Superman . . .

No one called Sensitive System on it's own munchkinism. Taking it and then suffering no drawback because you don't have any cyber was called munchkinisim. Much the same as Geas: Being Alive.

Do. The. Math.

If you're not awakened and you take it you suffer no more than the guy who has no cyber.
If you're awakened and you have less than .5 essence of cyber, you suffer no more than the guy who has no cyber.
If you're awakened and you have >1.5 cyber then you don't take it because it costs B.P. Who wants to PAY B.P. to have a disadvantage?
If you're in the remaining group, it's still 5 free BP. Probably not worth it and you have to figure out why your character went for the essence loss when he should have known better.

This is no point where it makes sense to take it that has any more drawbacks to what you're calling "munchkinism". So yes, you are calling it on it's own "Munchkinism".

Except that most of the stuff an adept would get is bioware, and the flaw doesn't affect bioware (one of the things GMs can house rule, if they want to tweak it and make it more of a disadvantage)

Glyph, that's the point: allergies have anti-munchkin rules already. That's all this is, preventing people from taking NQs that have no effect. As I said above, Sensitive System is hardly a great example of that, and the main idea here is *not* 'ban it'. It just happened to be the example that came up in a thread specifically about cheating the NQ system.

I would disagree with the premise of that. It's like saying someone with Unlucky and one point of Edge is a munchkin if he never spends Edge. But in actuality, by not raising Edge, and not using it when it can be used effectively 5 out of 6 times, the character is actually limiting himself more than the character with 3 Edge who occasionally spends it, and on the rare occasion has it backfire on him.

A character with sensitive system and no 'ware is essentially giving up on the possible advantages of 'ware completely. Compare that with a hermetic mage who gets, say, cybereyes: 2 with lots of goodies, a datajack, and cerebral booster: 2. Sure, if he didn't have sensitive system, he could have crammed in a bit more stuff, but he has what he wanted. For this character, who is affected by sensitive system, it is actually less of a disadvantage.

Honestly, the term "munchkinism" is being way too overused on this board lately. Munchkinism is using "creative" rules interpretations, exploiting loopholes, and outright cheating, to create characters designed to "win" the game at the expense of everyone else's fun. Not simply picking a game option that others might think is underpriced or overly optimal.

*shrug* One man's 'exploiting loopholes' is another man's 'optimal choice'. The point is that the bonus BP from NQs should fit the sacrifice. No sacrifice = no BP, mitigated sacrifice = reduced BP.

Sensitive System, like Unlucky, isn't a great example of the former (because you're always affected by the barrier to 'ware). It *might* be a good example of the the latter, though (again, depending on the group, player, and GM).

The fact is, all perk/flaw systems in all games are munchkin-bait, and people read them thinking 'which of these will affect me the least?'.

Points totals (particularly from Negative Qualities) don't always matter much when statting up NPCs, but just as a quick aside, I've got an adept in an upcoming product that's done exactly that. I don't even remember if I bothered to give him the points for the NQ, but it's in there, primarily as a justification for why he's never indulged in that particular shortcut.

My take is Sensitive System is only munchkin if the player who took it for his character never intends to get any 'ware for the character in the first place. He's taking a penalty to something that doesn't affect him, not at character creation nor in the future, just for the points.

For example: A Pixie is unlikely to get Cyberware, ever, in 99.9% of campaigns out there. So a player taking "Sensitive System" for his Pixie character is probably guilty of munchkinism.

I don't include folks that have builds that MIGHT reasonably take 'ware in the future. Intent is important.

Note that I tend to seperate powergaming from munchkinism. To me, powergaming still has standards and attempts to stay within RAI. Munchkinism flat out ignores RAI in the quest for more power.




-k

If I ever get a player thinking along these lines I'll offer them the full 35 BP bonus without having to take any negative qualities at all*. The meta-game of getting something for nothing at chargen has nothing to do with roleplaying or anyone else at the table – it's a self-set challenge. Roleplaying games are meant to be the opposite of board games, free and flexible and communal to enjoy as the group wishes so if people are desperate for those extra points then f*** it they can have them. Let them game the system on their own time. Meanwhile, at the table, they can look at those extra BPs and start to wonder what they're really worth.

Hell, if they caught me in a bad mood I might offer them a bonus 400BPs with no attribute caps, no skill cap, no availability cap, no restrictions of any kind. Then (depending on my subsequent mood) either they'll have the dullest game ever due to a complete lack of challenge and uncertainty (on the mechanical level) or they'll quickly be reminded that NPCs have no BP limit ...

My personal take on Sensitive System is that the character should already have an applicable implant. I for one couldn't consider it a negative quality otherwise.

* I guess I would have to offer this to the other players as well for fairness, but a bit of the game would die for each one that accepts

Freaking fuck. If you do not want to play a pacifist, DO NOT TAKE THE FREAKING QUALITY.

It should not only be reflected in his action, but also in his character sheet.

For example for a mage:
Mentor spirt should not be warrior or the like.
Spells should not involve a collection of elemental ball spells.
He probably should not have a high fire arms skill.
And so on.

@Yerameyahu

I mean come on, you got 35 Points of flaws out of I guess more than 500 possible. So it should not be too hard to pick something fitting and not crippeling.

@Glyph
I totally agree with you on the regards of sensitiv system and unlucky.
Nothing gives you the edge, edge 5 gives you without the quality. So yeah, you get some more points to spend, so what?

I thought that this one would be obvious... Superman is not a Shadowrunner.
Comic Books have different standards for Weaknesses.

Irion, I didn't say it was hard. I just said that's what perk/flaw systems are. Glyph was implying that munchkins are rare, that we're talking about perfectly innocent players who just happened to take minimized/negated NQs, and that it's just so darn mean to call them 'munchkin'.

Please explain to me how, if they have an applicable implant, it's actually a disadvantage that has to do "with roleplaying or anyone else at the table". Show me the case where it IS a negative quality as you define NQs.

If you really want to create the system you describe, the simplest way to do that is to state that players get no BPs for disadvantages, but they're still free to take up to what would have equaled 35 BPs of disadvantages. The players who take them are the players you're looking for, not the players who played you for BPs.

And, in many ways, you might get better characters. 0BP worth of pacifism is enjoyable to play as is 0 BP of Big Regret. I've played a character that had both of those traits in my notes, just not on my character sheet and during play learned reasons and ways to deal with such things.

There seems to be a belief here that it's the things that cost or gave BPs are the things that define a character. I don't believe that to be true. The things that cost or gave BPs are the things that define dice rolls and character creation and limit or expand character choices in play. The things that define a character are who they are, who they were, and who they want to be. And those things aren't in any character generator.

I don't see that belief. I see that Negative Qualities should negatively impact the character. This isn't some grand speech about the soul of roleplaying. Mechanics have rules for a reason.

@Yerameyahu
I mean I do not get it. There are a lot of NQ out there. And some have to fit the character. And negativ qualities fitting the character are not really getting yourself into a problem, because you wanted the character to be that way.
For example, if I choose pacifist, I (as a player) made the choice that this charcter does not want to kill because of his background.
So hell, the quality takes nothing from me.
If somebody can't find something like that, he or she really did not think about the character she/he is playing.

Yes, fitting disadvantages do not hurt that much. Thats reasonable to assume.

The only weakness which really is a bit of is in dept. (Which unfortunatly just fits fine a lot of character concepts and gives a first class motivation).

I took Severe Allergy: Silver for my SURGE character... who happens to have a fox tail and fox ears. Everyone at first glance would think "Fox Shapeshifter... load up the silver ammo!"

But, Irion, the character concept is already limited. The something has already been taken. *I* (and most others) are not saying that's a problem. Sensitive System (again again, a bad example, not mine) is indeed limiting characters (so that they avoid 'ware). I gave better examples above, but others are available—some are in the book, even. Things like Borrowed Time in a one-shot game. Spirit Hated (I forget the name) for the Astral Hazing sam.

And NQs are not 'always', not even 'usually' part of the character background. All the sample characters have random stuff like Gold allergies tossed on; nothing *wrong* with that, it's just not very character-first. I agree, the big ones probably *are*, and you deserve the points if you're fulfilling the sacrifice… like being a pacifist.

at availability 12R. That's a Negotiation + Charisma Extended Test with a 1 day interval needing 12 hits and they need a license to buy it on the legal market. So, unless the group is pre-stocked for some reason I can't think of, they need to order it AFTER they see you. Am I missing anything? And then they either need additional clip or they're shooting silver ammo at everyone. Even with additional clips, it's really crippling their effectiveness against the rest of the team to load silver ammo to shoot at you with.

Out of curiosity, how often do you get shot at with silver ammo?

(Note that I have no problem with it, I'm just curious how often it actually impacts play to the party's detriment.)

Maybe they did their legwork. Besides, NPCs don't use the player gear rules.

I played as a Jaguar Shapeshfiter once, the campaign lasted for some 10-ish sessions. In one of them I was stabbed with a silver knife, in another one, one of the players, after figuring out I was a shapeshifter and doing his legwork to find out about what shapeshifters can and can not do, finally bought some silver bullets and actually tried to shoot me once but I dodged and tripped him.

Its the most common metal allergy, capable of harming many infected and shapeshifters. I am thinking it would be standard issue for HRT teams to have a clip of silver ammo to deal with things like this.

Well, again, for the slightly angry among us, if i DO go with pacifist, it is in his background, sort of as to why, and will be played as such. It was really just a thought to see what the response from DS would be, exactly as i had planned

Sorry I didn't get a chance to reply to this post earlier today.

As for how much I get shot at... God, I wish I was playing, but with my Medical Lab Tech classes (Clinical Microbiology, Clinical Chemistry, and Urinalysis) I don't have time to play. When my workload eases I will try to get into a game.

As for silver ammo... can't you load your own? I mean with a shotgun it should be easy-peasy.

1. Buy silver
2. make large BB's (for buckshot)
3. Load it in the shells
4. Profit!!!!

Sure, but they you won't even do Physical damage.

Why?

Cuz it's a lame shotgun with 'flechette'. It won't beat your armor. Hell, I'm not even sure Allergy applies to things that don't touch your body.

You assume a LOT there Yerameyahu. I have seen those "Lame Flechette Rounds (Shot)" from shotguns absolutely shred their target, and those in good Armor at that. You are making assumptions that I have yet to see borne up in the game... Is it possible that your attack will do no damage. Sure. Is it Likely, Not really.

It's SR4. Shot shotguns are trash, unless you're hunting critters. Maybe *you're* assuming a silly number of net hits, or something.

Nope, just empirical evidence gained from 5 years of playing SR4/SR4A.
Your experience may be different, and I acknowledge that, but a Shotgun, even in SR4A, is not insignificant.

Anyways...

Actually, they'll think "It's a furry... load up the armor-piercing explosive assault cannon rounds!"

But seriously, I don't consider silver to really be that out of line. It's something you're unlikely to encounter very often, but still something you could plausibly run into, as ammo, jewelry, etc.

I'm a mellow GM, though. A lot of the other posters here would probably have a coronary if someone tried to play the Combat Mage archetype.

"Sensitive system? Where's your 'ware? How can you have sensitive system if you don't have any 'ware? Mild addictions to simsense? and stimulants? Oh yeah, big fricking disadvantages - he's addicted to popular entertainment, and coffee! Listen, you don't get a mild addiction to simsense and stimulants in my campaign, unless it's snuff BTLs and Nitro! And what's this? Mild allergy to sunlight, huh? Yeah, that's really crippling, since shadowrunners like doing their jobs in broad daylight and all. Wait, wait, wait... what is this munchkin crap? You gave yourself 10 points for that? Sunlight as a common allergy? Dude... the game is set in SEATTLE!!"

In fairness, the sample characters suck for *many* reasons. They *do* have a silly number of weird little NQs.

Powergamer:Puts an effectiv generated character and the rules over the fluff and roleplay.
Munchkin: Puts the power of his character over the rules too. (Reading only half the rules, out of context, apply it only if fitting etc.)

Why is that a problem.
Sorry, you get not much BP for negativ qualities to start with.
I mean beeing unable to move not even gets you over 35.
So yeah, I guess they are not meant to really hurt your concept big time.
(Which would be quite self contra dictionary)

It does not fit to take sensitiv system if you cram yourself with cyber. Yes, it fits some shaman who probably will never use cyber.
Yeah, you do not take simsense vertigo if you are playing a hacker, because well, it makes you a poor hacker.
You get 35 BP to flesh out your character a bit. Even if none of the "drawbacks" ever hurt you, it is not a big deal after all.
They only should fit the character and if they trigger, they should be accepted.
So if you take pacifist and never run in a problem because of it, you do good roleplaying/smart thinking. No problem with that.
But if you shoot people as soon as you run in a "problem", well I guess you should not have taken this quality.

Simsense vertigo might be free BP for a lot of characters. But still it might be played out if someone wants to meet the characters in the matrix. Yeah nothing life threatening, but you only got 5 BP (or was it 10?) for it, so I would say it does not qualify for that.

How often is the 11 dice on a role making a differance?

Yes, it is quite a good idea to only take mentor spirits with compulsion test, if you got yourself a high charisma and willpower. (At least 10)

Simsense Vertigo is crippling for all but total luddites; it's just *extra* bad for Hackers.

My definition of munchkin does not require (or include) outright cheating, and overlaps heavily with 'powergamer'.

Likewise. I always thought of 'munchkin' as simply a cuter term for 'powergamer' whilst 'cheat' needs no such synonym, especially here.

I run a Cat Shaman with pacifist 1, and have gotten great mileage out of it. I get synergy by not using guns, not contributing to wetwork, using/learning only stun combat spells and using it as a roleplaying hook (I work to actively stop executions, and go after cold blooded murderers with lots of non-lethal gustu). It even works nicely as a background item for my character.

It's been a fun challenge and a great role playing aide, and I havn't had to thread the needle to keep the whole thing legit.

The thing is… we all know that Stun is optimal anyway. SnS, Stunbolt, etc. So it's not exactly crippling to ask a player to abide by Pacifism, if they *choose* the NQ.

That's true. But I think roleplaying is where NQ's provide value. Nothing's more lame to me than just choosing Allergy.... to... sunlight. For no reason at all. Where's the fun in that?

I found that taking Pacificism led to more NQs like vendetta and enemy. And voila! Character concept and background. Plus it helped in other ways, like costs. No ammo to worry about, or guns, fake gun licenses, gun accessories, gun mods. My GM now has plot tools to work with also. So it's all been surprising fun.

I know that everyone harps on the 'Paraplegic Hacker' concept. But I kind of like the idea. Not for powergaming, but for roleplaying opportunities and challenges.