I'm only going to say this one more time: we have no evidence that Horrors are affected by manawarps.

Canon also mentions several metamagic techniques that limit manawarps, and we know that spirits have powers that often mimic metamagics. Therefore, it is possible that this spirit has the power "Immunity to Manawarps".

No. Filtering creates a temporary astral construct to filter out the corrupt astral energies, but it doesn't protect from damage from the mana warp on the astral. If a spirit could create a filter with the Sorcery power, it would still face damage (unless, possibly, it was protected within a unique enchantment.)

De Vries' Essence Focus might be of some use to blood spirits, wraiths and other spirits that face Essence Loss, but it wouldn't protect from the damages of the Warp.

Target: Wastelands details Outer Space.

that's kind of worrisome. Weren't they trying to keep it from crashing/re-entering orbit IIRC? Worrisome because that means there were multiple IE's (once again, assuming I remember the quote correctly as 'we') trying to keep this spirit (assuming also that is what the meteorite was all about) from returning.

On the same line, also worrisome becuase said IEs failed tostop it, it landed, and they didn't try to do anything about said 'escapee'. Did they not care, or were they to afraid to try during the down cycle?

Five bucks says you're gonna have to say it again.

A ghost with a can be destroyed if the chain is destroyed. You still have to fight it normally. A Free Spirit with Hidden Life is destroyed instantly if its vessel is destroyed.

I don't have a horse in this race although I think it's a rather interesting subject.

But I will note that the logic behind that statement is faulty in the extreme. We also have no evidence that mages dressing in purple strips while waving a dead chicken and singing Wayne Netwon songs are affected by mana warps. But I consider it a safe bet.

Rather one should look for evidence that indicates what affect mana warps have upon Horrors. For one, we know that they can't travel to low mana areas.

Another interesting questions due to my lack of knowledge about SR:

Can they exist in extremely low mana areas, i.e. have any lived on earth through a no magic cycle? If so, were they active (like the imortal elves) or inactive (like the dragons)?

Damn, well there goes that idea...

That's how I've read it, just like deep space is given a background count. It's a pure game mechanic thing with it representing either corrupted areas of mana or low levels of mana.

we don't have any evidence that a human can be killed by being dropped into the sun, either. mana warps affect every other 'living' being; assuming that horrors are immune to them would be going against what evidence does exist.

I believe Target: Wastlands specifically states that the source of mana is living creatures and that their projection of the same ends at the edge of the biosphere.

It's been a while since I read it however. I'll check for a quote from the book when I get a chance.

completely false. it's just as viable to say that mana is a byproduct of life, and that it dissipates if no life is present.

i don't recall that one. and besides, the word of someone who gouged out their own eyes is not something that should be taken without a grain of salt.

At least it shows personal committment to the story

I know that guy!

The main protagonist of most of my fiction is a woman, but I haven't castrated myself in furtherance of the story.

Funny... I also remember that but I think it was from some shadowtalk on a sourcebook. Maybe the same Target: Wastelands.

Life aspects mana. Human magic is aspected toward the life and existence that they know. Usually it is the same default state that is dominant in the earth's aura. This state of mana is greatly shaped by the earth, and all the life upon it. Space has no shortage of mana, as seen that filtering is as effective there as anywhere (although very difficult). At best (for the humans), the mana of space is mostly aspected in a sterile/high-energy composite manner. Since radioactive and sterile aligned mages exist in SR, it is then possible that a mage could adjust their preferred natural state to actually correspond to space. They would face a crippling background count on earth, mild on the moon, and unknown on other regions, but they would be able to add so much to extraplanetary advancement that it's probably worth trying to force a few (see corporate files/mage abuse/severe/orbital/Icarus.enc).

The explicit statement of the SR3 BBB would suggest otherwise.


Big V's Hearld knows what he is talking about.

If life created mana then, logically, there wouldn't have been a downcycle. Mana flows in waves from the metaplanes and through the physical plane. As it flows through it is altered by what it touches and thus the physical is projected on the astral in much the same way that radiographic imaging works.

Neo-Anarchist Guide to Real Life. It was quickly followed by someone calling that "phycological effects" of leaving the biosphere. It is also evidence number 3 (1 being Horrors corrupt astral space, 2 being "Space has no shortage of mana, as seen that filtering is as effective there as anywhere..." - Herald of Verjigorm) that Horrors may be able to survive in space.

There was one there too. There was an expedition team that found a cave somewhere in desert mts. (IIRC) The team got an "oogie" feeling about the place. IThe mage percevied astrally and proceeded to tear his eyes out.

Also, little history lesson, Messias the elder scholar that translated the Books of Harrow also clawed out his eyes after translating the books.

So the evidence shows that apparently horrors are REALLY ugly. Either that, or they induce an allergy in the victim to their own eyeballs. Your pick.

Edit: Edited for AH> Matthias was a member of the Veiled Alliance. oops.

Indeed it is not.

Having looked back over the books they specifically state in fact that no one has even a firm theory about the subject and that research as to the cause is still on going. hyzmarca's theory is sort of present in MitS, but he's carried it beyond the canon statements.


Until something new is published, this means its the GM's call.

I'm basing it on the canon statements in the BBB. These aren't in character remarks, they are factual statements about the game world. Mana flows from the metaplans; the presence of life has nothing to do with the mana level.

Quote please.

Once again

"Flows from the metaplanes" is the important part of that quote. It is certainly not created by life.

I can go on spouting quotes, but these should serve to illustrate my point for right now.

Whatever the origin of magical energy - whether it flows from the metaplanes as suggested by the Manual of Practical Thaumaturgy, exists as a radiation in space a la Larry Niven's The Magic Goes Away or whatever theory you ascribe to - there is no doubt that mana is shaped by life. Whether mana is generated by living beings is up for debate, the fact that mana is affected by the very existence of living things, especially their thoughts, deeds and emotions, is not. The presence of living things can have an effect on the mana level of a given location - various power sites and manalines should be sufficient evidence of that.

Part of Hyzmarca's arguements are based on p.161 of the SR3 BBB. That page is flavor text. It presents one view on the subject, it does not cover every theory, and it should not limit your gameplay should you decide magic works differently.

Whether Horrors are discomfited by outer space is an unknown - there is no canon example of a Horror beyond the limits of Earth of the Metaplanes/Netherworlds. Mana warps are psychologically devastating to experience, so a single instance of eyeball-rippage doesn't present sufficient evidence. Hell, Oedipus did the same thing, and there's no evidence he saw a Horror, either.

Technically speaking, the only mechanic for a low level of mana is a void, not a background count. Whether a void would become a mana warp should it reach a certain intensity is open to debate. Fovae are most likely areas of mana warp that result as a side effect of using blood magic - I leave the matter open for further debate.

And for the record, it was Elianar Messias. Get it right!

I chalk Elianar Messias the elf clawing his eyes out to a mesaline trip gone bad as he was trying to get in the "magical mood". After all not only was that book eventually translated, so were (most of?) the rest of the set. Parts of the translation were done by a Dorf, no less.

What i'm really curious about is how this would be a prison for a Horror? Or at least a prision that hadn't stopped functioning quite some time back, as i thought that the drop in mana levels during the down cycle eventually sends them all back.

If there was a way for them to maintain their presence, and i found out about it, i sure as hell wouldn't give them any hint what-so-ever that it was possible much less expose them to it. That's just asking for them to figure it out, and they do appear to be both resourceful and peristant little buggers. If they do figure it out you'll end up with all-horrors, all-the-time.

Indeed.

IC posts are basically useless for proof of an concept, they only indicate current in-game thought and in SR such thought is open to significant diversion from reality.

Beyond that, there isn't much more to say on the subject.

It isn't so much the mana warp, it is the absolute void on the Astral. Of course if they aren't Materializing from the Astral but from one of the metaplanes then the lack of Astral isn't much of an issue. Not sure if this is ever described as possible or happening, but if mana flows to the physical from some place other than the Astral.....

Which isn't space, at least not in SR3. MitS describes it as a rating 10 mana warp, and Filtering can deal with it. Those are game rules, not fluff text, therefore there is no mana void in space by the SR3 rules.

Except for Toxic Spirits, which have background count added to their force.