First of all, should silver bullets be something that you can get at character creation?

Second, if I was going to create these as a custom item, how much should they cost?


Thanks all.

Not at creation. These would be a custom job. You'd probably need an adventure to set up a contact who'd be able to do these. Also they would have to be just straight slugs. the nature of them means no ADPS, EX or fletchettes. Maybe hollow tipped.

I'd say 10 to 20 per bullet would not be out of place.

I wouldn't go so far as to not allow it at chargen, but I would need to do some research on the cost of silver first. I wouldn't rule out APDS, EX or flechette silver rounds either. While not exactly sourcebook or rulebook canon, I remember that Wolf and Raven had examples of pretty funky silver rounds - there was even chemical silver(as opposed to solid metal silver) rounds.

I've actually done this before, because I played an HMHVV-hunting character. The way I figured it was this:

Check the prices for materials in "Magic in the Shadows;" there's a listing for silver. It'll list its cost as "per unit." By my estimation, 10 units = 1 kilo of the material. I say this based on a quote from "Cyberpirates" that said orichalcum was 880,000 nuyen a kilo. MitS lists orichalcum as costing 88,000 nuyen a unit, therefore it's logical to say that 10 units equals a kilo.

So anyways, check the weights for bullets (I don't remember them off-hand), see how many shots you can make with a kilo of the REFINED version of the material, and then pay the cost of a kilo of it for the bullets. VERY expensive, I know.

That's the simple way to go about it, I think.

Is it actually that out-there to assume that there are mass produced silver bullets? Probably a very limited production run, special order or specialist shops only, but considering shifters and their weaknesses are basically common knowledge in the 6th World it's hard to believe no one would market silver bullets.

Hell, they'd probably market them even if shifters weren't common knowledge, just to cash in on the general paranoia of those terrified by the Awakening and everything it brought. Hear howling in the woods? Better have some silver bullets on hand, Redneck Jimmy!

Just make sure the silver bullets you buy are the real thing and not some cheap placebo mass marketed to the terminally clueless...

Silver alloy bullets are made commercially today for both handgun and rifle, so they're not necessarily a custom-only job, unless only pure silver would do. Trueshot. They cost about the same (sometimes a little less, depending on the bullet) as premium lead/antimony jacketed (read: regular) bullets.

Considering that, I would not disallow "regular" silver bullet ammunition at character creation. I would not allow silver APDS (the alloy is not hard enough to give the APDS effect; pure silver most certainly would not be hard enough, nor would it be usable in high-velocity rifles (the vast majority) at all unless it were jacketed). Explosive should be possible.

I don't see why flechette shouldn't also be an option. Hey, at least chucks of silver in a Streetsweeper.

They might cost a bit more though if you ruled that it had to have close to pure silver for the allergy to work. Silver even has nearly the same density of lead, and is a slightly harder metal, so you wouldn't even really need to worry about silver shot degrading performance.

Silver buckshot ought to be possible, too, for those shotgun enthusiasts out there.

Raygun's right about the silver being no good for APDS, the round would be too soft to penetrate, what is the specific hardness of Ag by the way? I can't see it being anywhere close to Tungsten.

As for explosive rounds, I dunno about that, if you start to hollow out silver and put stuff inside, wouldn't it cause it to loose shape (and possibly payload)?

As for the buck shot idea, yeah, just drip molten silver into a bucket of cold water. If you want flechettes, just get a bullet mold, a press, some powder, primers casing, wadding, patience...

I was reading and article on this the other day actually ... really well done.

- the hardness of silver is higher than lead, so it will wear the barrel a little more, but would still be soft enough to reform to the rifling of the barrel.
- at present day costs is was $8 a bullet for materials.
- the bullet needed to be formed at over 1200 degrees, so a graphite mould was used.
The mould had to be heated so that the silver could flow into it and not cool too quickly and gum it up. Which meant that silver bullets were not practicle for everyday manufacture. The shots were not truer, as the legends would say, but it acted more like a jacketed round on a target. It was not tested against armour.

IMO, the police, or the military, might have silver bullets stored in the armoury as a contingency for shifters. I would definitely allow silver bullets at char-gen, but at high costs, and with minimal options.

I would however allow for chem rounds loaded with silver-nitrate. Any photo hobbyist store is a good source for the stuff as it's used in developing camera film.

Copper and silver are fairly close in hardness and other physical properties, such as relatively resiliant to corrosion. If you used pure silver jackets instead of copper over your lead you've got a wiener, er winner. Just margianlly more expensive because silver is more expensive than copper, but not enormously so since the amount of material used for the jacket is normally a small portion of the slugs total mass.

P.S. There is shotgun ammo that uses copper coated shot pellets.

For a magical effect the silver will have to be fairly pure, not just the alloy used for your mother's best flat ware.

ADPS is right out. Kids, armor piercing rounds work because they are hardened and coated, usually with tephlon. This coating would work on a molecular to block the contact between the sliver and the beastsie. In other words someone selling APDS silver bullets will give you something very pretty with the magical power of a Lincoln Log.

In my world Knight Errant security carries silver clips standard with other ammo. In the 6th world you never know when you will be dealing with a vampire, Wendi go, banshee, nosferatu, shape shifter, or just some chummer hoped up on Immortal Flower.

Price for these bullets would be the same as normal. Silver is cheap and the bullets would only need to be an alloy or just silver coated to have the needed effect.


If I were to try to take any of these sorta dual natured baddies I would want an Ares Supersquirt or equivalent loaded with FABIII. Spray a room down with FABIII and dual natured critters are no longer a problem.

Just wondering:

Would replacing the liquid lubricant (some sort of liquid TEFLON, IIRC) inside a Glaser Safety Slug with silver nitrate work?

Failing that, an Ares Supersquirt filled with a mixture of colloidal silver (capsules full of which are available in most drug stores), silver nitrate, dimethylsulfoxide and water should also work.

The main problem with cast-silver bullets is that silver is both *lighter* and *harder* than lead.

All other things being equal, a cast silver bullet would be lighter than its lead counterpart by approximately thirty percent--this, of course, means higher velocity and *possibly* better accuracy, but the reloader would probably need to reduce the powder charge accordingly, because a lightweight bullet backed by a heavy powder charge would tend to tumble, except at VERY close range--25 yards or less, I should think.

I read an article in a firearms-related magazine about 25 or so years ago--I think it was just after that God-awful film, The Legend of the Lone Ranger, was released-- which would've been sometime in 1981.

The article's author mentioned many of the same problems--he had to reduce the powder charge because the bullets were tumbling. The problem was that he was casting the bullets into a standard lead mold intended to produce the traditional 255-grain round-nosed projectile that has been the industry standard for the .45 Long Colt cartridge for ages. IIRC, the same size bullet, cast in sterling silver, weighed only about 175 grains.

In addition, he destroyed at least one lead-melting pot in the process, because the melting point of silver is so much higher than that of lead, and the thermostat on a lead-melting pot only goes so high.

It seems that he got impatient and tried to help the process along by applying an external heat source--in this case, a propane torch--to the exterior of the melting pot.

All he received for his trouble was a ruined melting pot with a large hole cut into the side.

In addition, the silver bullets were not as accurate as the Lone Ranger stories claimed.

--Foreigner

I'm sort of curious as to why people see the need for these weird chemical coctail silver bullets, and in particular armor-piercing silver bullets. Assuming you're fighting shapeshifters, your target's almost certainly going to have 0 Armor. You really don't need anything nastier than a run-of-the-mill Predator and a plain silver slug to put them down.

Though the buckshot/flechette idea is certainly a good one. Unarmored targets aren't especially fond of those types of ammo.

Not when they are in their animal form.

blakkie: Try this.

I bow[-wow?] before your Link-Fu.

Hope it can shapeshift into something with thumbs, or has friends standing by.

Perhaps even a little moreso when they spell it wrong.

What if you used that Ares Supersquirt to spray molten teflon onto an armored person?

It's true a Shapeshifter can just stay in human form and benefit from armor normally, but a Shapeshifter in human form is just a relatively normal character (a rather poor one, if you're building them using limited BP) with Regeneration and the Dual-Natured (dis)advantage. I doubt your GM is going to bother using Shapeshifters and never having them transform on you.

That said, I guess if your major campaign villain turns out to be a Shapeshifter with magical armor or cyber-widgets or something, maybe you would need special ammo to even the score. Maybe. I'd still rather tussle with some wonky 'Shifter than a Dragon or a Shadow Spirit or a Cyberzombie or a Vampire or...

Well, you get the idea. Personally I only ever had one character even carry silver bullets; usually you just need to get the Melee Adept a silvered whackamajig and you can consider 'Shifters everywhere pretty much boned.

I like the idea of molten teflon or something.


I wonder just how many BBEGs in Shadowrun have the high Athletics skill you'd need to consistantly stand up in a pool of rapidly-expanding ultra-lubricant?


And remember, don't feel sorry for 'em when they're done. Whip out your dual Uzis and let 'em have it.

Don't forget, folks:

Several major body armor manufacturers (Second Chance, for example) currently produce bullet-resistant vests for police dogs--usually the medium- to large-sized breeds, such as Doberman pinschers, German Shepherds, and Labrador/Golden Retrievers.

An animal 'shifter just *MIGHT* have the foresight to purchase such a vest--provided, of course, that his/her animal form is small enough to wear it.

--Foreigner

oooooh, good point.

aww, you mean i can't have a vest for my crack sniffing shitzu?

Sure you can, take one kevlar helmet, now take your diamond/carbide bladed tablesaw and cut the dog to fit the helmet. Liberally apply epoxy to seal wounds and attach the pooch to the helmet, voila, armored crotch terror.

Hmmm... I remember paying a bit so I can outfit a few claymores with silver ball bearings to help solve some shifter problems.

Only down side was the expense AND that the stupid GM decided to make it a funky game of mixing some WoD elements into the game so we have shifters who are immune to silver and all that stupid crud. I really hated how the game then devolved to some players being a free spirit, one a dragon, blah, blah. Blech, bad memories starting up again. Yeah I hate powergaming and that's what it devolved to.

A good Shapeshifter does not just transform in the heat of battle. It is a strategic decision. Smaller shifters can assume animal form for infiltration, recon, or retreat, so can flying shifters. Larger shifters will practically never have a good reason to assume animal form near combat, except for the rare cases when animal form stats are superior than human stats and the shufter just wants to maul someone. Larger shifters can best apply their animal forms toward intimidation and interrogation.

Anyone who wants to see an excellent description of how a Shapeshifter lives, thinks, and fights should check out Shapcano's first novel, "Inheritance".

http://www.shapcano.com

Hey, I have an idea. Colloidal silver is inexpensive and often used in snake-oil remedies. What about a squirt weapon that combines colloidal silver and DMSO? I'm not sure if it would work, since the silver is only suspended in the water, but it might.

Halloween Jack:

Um, no offense, but I *think* that somebody else already beat you to it.

Namely, *ME*.

Check my post on Page One.

No offense taken, though--after all, great minds think alike.

--Foreigner