I have been playing Deus Ex 2, invisible war.
I am not sure if they would be workable in a plotline but here are some ideas.
You can upgrade your character with biomods, which are canniters of nannites that can build a few pieces of cyberware in you. Things from strength increases to hiding your thermal signature. Although the tech is not really shadowrun'esque and not really probable, it got me thinking about cyberware/bioware surgury. Most of the surgury would be done by nanites. With nanites small little black cliniques could pop up increasing the availability a little. (some cannisters that might be available in a lab, synaptic accelerators, bioware thermo, bioware lowlight) It would take a person with skill 5 or 6 to use them properly. (maybe a medical shop as well)
Another resource I thought was cool was the blog novel Simon of space. In there a character had "fixers" little nanites that would stitch together your skin and help with the healing process. Basically a biotech kit rating (6), that would auto - diagnose and repair.
The ugly side of nanites.
Dues Ex 2 had some great ideas about nanite clouds that were basically a plague blowing around, and would cause respiratory damage to people. There are many ways that this could come about.
1. some doomsday cult.
2. Deus the A.I.
3. A few nanites that escaped a r & d facility
4. A few surgury nanites that were some how reprogrammed, or warped (electrical shock perhaps, and replicated as defunct version)
In SR4 Wireless nanites could form some kind of hive mind cloud, with a collective intelligence. They could even form a being, (Terminator 3 /4 anyone?)
This is also a variant of Shadowdragon's antitech plague from a while ago.
Full Version: Nanites
| QUOTE (Nyxll) |
| Another resource I thought was cool was the blog novel Simon of space. In there a character had "fixers" little nanites that would stitch together your skin and help with the healing process. Basically a biotech kit rating (6), that would auto - diagnose and repair. |
You mean like SR3's Savior Advanced Medkit?
The problem is that if you let nanites do that, there's a whole load of other stuff they should be able to do (create super soldiers, tag you, reprogram your brains, be too small to see, prevent your weapons from working, decrease your essence to nothing, gum up your veins until you die, etc. etc.) and shadowrunning quickly becomes 'enter a corporate facility and die'.
Nanites, IMO, should never get out of a factory or some other supportive environment with enough energy to power them. Nanites as medkits I can believe. But a lot of the nanotech in M&M was going too far. Fortunately, SR's nanites didn't quite get as far as some 1990s fiction.
Wild clouds of nanites running amok eating buildings (and people) runs into some basic engineering problems, like where they get the power to do all that work - nanoscale batteries, fuel cells, etc. just aren't up to the task.
A "hive mind cloud" would need to be in a tank with power connection (either electrical outlets or a solution of chemicals and oxygen - like sugar and oxygen), while "Terminator 3/4" would need to include a non-nanoscale power plant or battery pack.
Wild clouds of nanites running amok eating buildings (and people) runs into some basic engineering problems, like where they get the power to do all that work - nanoscale batteries, fuel cells, etc. just aren't up to the task.
A "hive mind cloud" would need to be in a tank with power connection (either electrical outlets or a solution of chemicals and oxygen - like sugar and oxygen), while "Terminator 3/4" would need to include a non-nanoscale power plant or battery pack.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
You mean like SR3's Savior Advanced Medkit? |
yes, but they fit into a package the size of a zippo lighter.
| QUOTE (Cray74) |
| Wild clouds of nanites running amok eating buildings (and people) runs into some basic engineering problems, like where they get the power to do all that work - nanoscale batteries, fuel cells, etc. just aren't up to the task. |
Couldn't they gain power from whatever they're breaking down? I imagine that breaking down complex carbon chains or human tissue could give off a burst of energy (they do burn, after all).
| QUOTE (Nyxll) | ||
yes, but they fit into a package the size of a zippo lighter. |
So where are the necessary drugs stored?
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| The problem is that if you let nanites do that, there's a whole load of other stuff they should be able to do (create super soldiers, tag you, reprogram your brains, be too small to see, prevent your weapons from working, decrease your essence to nothing, gum up your veins until you die, etc. etc.) and shadowrunning quickly becomes 'enter a corporate facility and die'. |
Nezumi makes a good point.
Nanotech is hideously powerful if its potential is fully realised to the limit of theoretical plausibility. It's more a question of imposing specific limits on Nanotech to maintain game balance and playability than anything else.
One of the things that became apparent in drafting is that cyberware, particularly intricate neural 'ware such as the enchepalon, is impossible without some kind of nanoscale machinery around to wire up all of the multitude of connections.
In essence the really interesting facets of cyberware take place at the interface between man and machine. You can plug any machine into the human nervous system, as long as you've got an interface (eg rigging). That's what nanotech really is; the interface and interpreter.
It's basically a case of 'this stuff must have always been around, but it's never been talked about before'. Frankly, it was a bitch to write and find a niche for to make it worth the wordcount without going back and changing game pretexts.... Also, it was written retroactively after the Arcology shutdown and introduction of Deus's Cutters made it neccessary and had set the bar for what was possible.
Most of the good stuff is already done plausibly by what is nominally cyberware (eg toxin extractors, etc), or done far more efficiently by bioware.
I'd suggest going back and reading the Nanotech section pretty comprehensively. Also look up works by Drexler and others that were used as references. Read the 'Uses of Nanotech' 'What it can't do" sections on p83-85. The latter was put in deliberately to discourage future authors from writing (more) nanotech that was stupidly over-powerful. Self replication is emphatically 'out'. Even if it was possible - power and raw materials are huge limitations, it's not something I'd want to see in any cyberpunk game. Too easy to die and not enough on the human scale.
In general terms, whatever nanotech can do, genetech can do far, far better (and cheaper) by adapting the functionality of an existing organism: If you want a corrosive cloud, engineer a mold spore that multiplies and starts producing acid when triggered by a certain enzyme. The same with airborne Ebola or any of a number of other nice diseases.
The biggest thing to keep in mind about Nanotech is that it should be freakishly expensive. Cutters exist (grudingly), but if the corporation you're running against is willing to plough 20K
into a dose to maybe kill you, then you're sure as hell playing in the big leagues.
The greatest advantage is nonotech is size. The greatest weakness of nanotech is size.
Free-roaming clouds ain't gonna get far. Imagine being a bee trying to circumnavigate the world and you have some idea of of the daunting task of a nanite crossing your living room. They aren't going to be smart either. Nanites would work best when they do one thing and one thing only, possible two or 3 things depending on chemical stimulis. They would be tiny collections of molecules engineered to interact with other collections molecules in very specific ways. In reality, they would be little different from designer drugs, they would simply be more versitile. Cutters would work on small scale. Grey Goo wouldn't reasonably. Of course, one can't rule out any rossibility with 100% certainty.
Free-roaming clouds ain't gonna get far. Imagine being a bee trying to circumnavigate the world and you have some idea of of the daunting task of a nanite crossing your living room. They aren't going to be smart either. Nanites would work best when they do one thing and one thing only, possible two or 3 things depending on chemical stimulis. They would be tiny collections of molecules engineered to interact with other collections molecules in very specific ways. In reality, they would be little different from designer drugs, they would simply be more versitile. Cutters would work on small scale. Grey Goo wouldn't reasonably. Of course, one can't rule out any rossibility with 100% certainty.
While I do see the potential of nanites as tools, some of the applications are not plausible. The limit will be the miniaturisation of effective sensors and coordination of control mechanisms (what hyzmarca said).
Medical applications in controlled environments are mostly viable. Track your nanites "global" position from the outside, use the nanite-generated information for task management. Industrial use is easier due to more uniform and better defined "materials".
SR3 free-floating nanotech is IMO already pushing the reality-imposed limits.
Medical applications in controlled environments are mostly viable. Track your nanites "global" position from the outside, use the nanite-generated information for task management. Industrial use is easier due to more uniform and better defined "materials".
SR3 free-floating nanotech is IMO already pushing the reality-imposed limits.
So no Micheal Crichton's Prey-style nanoswarms roaming the counrtyside?
Distancewise, nanoswarms roaming the countrysde is equivilant to humans walking to Mars (The inability to walk in space notwithstanding). Tightly clumped groups of nanites may float around on the wind like dust, but there would have to be an absurdly large number of them and they wouldn't get far except in conditions that would certainly generate violent sandstorms anyway.
| QUOTE |
| Most of the good stuff is already done plausibly by what is nominally cyberware (eg toxin extractors, etc), or done far more efficiently by bioware. |
Arguably the best thing about nanites is you do not have to worry about rejection or side effects. They would fit really well into mass production manufacturing, which means a low cost and availability.
| QUOTE |
| I'd suggest going back and reading the Nanotech section pretty comprehensively. Also look up works by Drexler and others that were used as references. Read the 'Uses of Nanotech' 'What it can't do" sections on p83-85. |
What book?
| QUOTE |
| The latter was put in deliberately to discourage future authors from writing (more) nanotech that was stupidly over-powerful. |
the pessimist in me finds this extremely ironic, when you have immortal elves and dragons that level cities.
| QUOTE |
| Self replication is emphatically 'out'. Even if it was possible - power and raw materials are huge limitations, it's not something I'd want to see in any cyberpunk game. Too easy to die and not enough on the human scale. |
The resources are readily available, both in the host and in nature. It would probably mean that the host would wind up consuming a great deal more iron, sugars, carbon and other raw materials, but they are definitely available.
| QUOTE |
| Too easy to die and not enough on the human scale. |
Isn't this where shadowrun is heading? Humans are frail and at the bottom of the pecking order but somehow we still manage to exist? Nanites would just be another blight in the pool of predators and infections.
| QUOTE |
| In general terms, whatever nanotech can do, genetech can do far, far better (and cheaper) by adapting the functionality of an existing organism: If you want a corrosive cloud, engineer a mold spore that multiplies and starts producing acid when triggered by a certain enzyme. The same with airborne Ebola or any of a number of other nice diseases. |
This of course is subjective. If you mass produce nanites, then the costs go down. Also nanites are easier to administer. Mold and other spores are also able to be countered easier than a plague of nanites or diseases.
| QUOTE |
| The biggest thing to keep in mind about Nanotech is that it should be freakishly expensive. Cutters exist (grudingly), but if the corporation you're running against is willing to plough 20K into a dose to maybe kill you, then you're sure as hell playing in the big leagues. |
For game balance reasons? I think after gameplay everything scales to the GM's desire. Money, availability, etc. If more nanites were introduced into gameplay, they could be post chargen.
| QUOTE |
| Free-roaming clouds ain't gonna get far. Imagine being a bee trying to circumnavigate the world and you have some idea of of the daunting task of a nanite crossing your living room. They aren't going to be smart either. Nanites would work best when they do one thing and one thing only, possible two or 3 things depending on chemical stimulis. They would be tiny collections of molecules engineered to interact with other collections molecules in very specific ways. In reality, they would be little different from designer drugs, they would simply be more versitile. Cutters would work on small scale. Grey Goo wouldn't reasonably. Of course, one can't rule out any rossibility with 100% certainty. |
This is true... and was part of the plot idea in the game. Only 1 arcology, oddly enough Cairo, which is in the desert was plagued by such a cloud. It was a local phenomenon. The nanites caused respiratory problems, and replicated. That was it. They were eventually countered by other nanites that were designed to locate and destroy them.
as best i understand it, it's best to look at rl nanotechnology as a new type of farming. you plant your seeds, wait a few months, and then harvest stuff. the difference is, you're harvesting chairs and airplane fuselages and computer chips, instead of corn and beans. you can probably harvest corn and beans, too--corn infused with the protien content of a chunk of steak, with kernels the size of your fist; beans which would poison you if you ate them, but from which you can extract processed heavy metals (and then churn the remainder into something edible).
Talk about Frankenfoods. It's every wackjob enviro's nightmare come true.
I like it!
I like it!
Most of the good stuff is already done plausibly by what is nominally cyberware (eg toxin extractors, etc), or done far more efficiently by bioware.[/QUOTE]
Arguably the best thing about nanites is you do not have to worry about rejection or side effects. They would fit really well into mass production manufacturing, which means a low cost and availability.
Actually, you would. Nanites are around the same size as bacteria or virii, and your body certainly has an immune reaction against them. In many cases it's not a toxin produced by the bacteria that kills you, but rather the hyperactive immune response of your body. Think about a mis-matched blood transfusion. Same too with splinters and transplanted organs on a larger scale.
The immune system rejection problem is one of the things that's taken as tacitly accomplished in order for nanites to work.... but because it's tacitly assumed in the game world doesn't mean it's not a problem.
[QUOTE]What book? [/QUOTE]
Man and Machine
[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
The latter was put in deliberately to discourage future authors from writing (more) nanotech that was stupidly over-powerful.[/QUOTE]
the pessimist in me finds this extremely ironic, when you have immortal elves and dragons that level cities. [/QUOTE]
...and Artificial Intelligence....and Mana Storms... and world altering Ghost Dance magic.
Heh, point taken.
Speaking personally though, I would have liked to see a bit less of that in times past.. and have seen a few IEs and Dragons get vapped, if nothing else to clear the landscape from all the clutter.
I could get into a big philosophical discussion about it all (Shadowrun isn't about invulnerability and draconic politics, IMHO), but really it comes down to taste and style: Some people want to play characters that struggle against oppression, other people want ultra powerful Move-by-Wire chromed to the eyeballs Troll Sammies and initiate Elven Physical Mages. The latter outweigh the former, in writing as well as playing.
[QUOTE][QUOTE]
Self replication is emphatically 'out'. Even if it was possible - power and raw materials are huge limitations, it's not something I'd want to see in any cyberpunk game. Too easy to die and not enough on the human scale.[/QUOTE]
The resources are readily available, both in the host and in nature. It would probably mean that the host would wind up consuming a great deal more iron, sugars, carbon and other raw materials, but they are definitely available. [/QUOTE]
Your body goes to an immense amount of effort to try and screen out metals. It's possible, to get heavy metal poisoning from buildup of things like Zinc and Iron, which do find a use in the body in things like Haemoglobin and Cytochrome oxidase. Usually it happens via genetic defect - things like Wilsons disease and hyper-thalassemia. Metals make up about 1 thousandth of a percent of body mass, and all the stuff that is there is all bound up in enzymes as their catalytic centers.
You could theoretically overcome that with something that picks up iron and other metals from the digestive system, but it's going to have to do something other than put it into the bloodstream because it'd poison you.
The big limitation is energy. Changing Aluminium to Aluminium Oxide liberates a hell-of-a-lot of energy - It's the basis of the Thermite reaction. Changing it back requires just as much....they build entire power stations specifically to do that: Bauxite to Aluminium. That's what synthesis is about; breaking and forming chemical bonds. The same happens with carbon: Graphite and diamond are allotropes, but to change on to the other usually requires thousands of atmospheres of pressure and furnace temperatures.
Things like buckytubes and diamond and pure metals are what nanites are all about. Pure metals oxidise (corrode or rust) - with the sole exception of gold. Carbon for building nanites would start from as close to the finished product as possible; buckytubes rather than methanol. It's construction and assembly rather than synthesis, really.
It is theoretically possible to build any chemical in the world from methanol via a sequence of snythetic steps...but we don't, for the simple reason that the energy costs are so damned prohibitive. There is simply no way you could feasibly get enough energy to run a nanite synthesis factory in the body starting from things like sugars. You'd need about fifty dedicated and specialised synthetic steps to make whatever chemical you needed, most of them requiring high pressure, and the energy cost would be so great that you'd find it unsustainable.
Or you use biological enzymes... but no enzyme in the world is going to churn out bucktubes or graphitic carbon sheets.
By the way, there is a nanite synethesis factory in the body, of a sort: It's called bone marrow, testes / ovaries, etc etc etc. These things all produce functional autonomous units of a sort, but they don't do it in the same way as nanites are described. It's biology and biochemistry. In all probability the most feasible way that nanotech will be actually realised is by hijacking some array of biological processes... but that means you don't have the convenient boxes to describe things with like 'genetech' or 'cyberware' or 'bioware'.
[/QUOTE][QUOTE]
The biggest thing to keep in mind about Nanotech is that it should be freakishly expensive. Cutters exist (grudingly), but if the corporation you're running against is willing to plough 20K into a dose to maybe kill you, then you're sure as hell playing in the big leagues.[/QUOTE]
For game balance reasons? I think after gameplay everything scales to the GM's desire. Money, availability, etc. If more nanites were introduced into gameplay, they could be post chargen.[QUOTE]
True enough. You can do whatever you want in the game.... people run all kinds of house rules, some of which I'd never want to see introduced into the main game for balance reasons.
My main argument about hyper-nanotech is suspension of disbelief - a critical factor in effective storytelling, in movies and books alike. Basically, for me, the test 'it it plausible or rationalisable' is a big thing.
(Which makes it all the more ironic in a game that fuses magic and technology
)
Arguably the best thing about nanites is you do not have to worry about rejection or side effects. They would fit really well into mass production manufacturing, which means a low cost and availability.
Actually, you would. Nanites are around the same size as bacteria or virii, and your body certainly has an immune reaction against them. In many cases it's not a toxin produced by the bacteria that kills you, but rather the hyperactive immune response of your body. Think about a mis-matched blood transfusion. Same too with splinters and transplanted organs on a larger scale.
The immune system rejection problem is one of the things that's taken as tacitly accomplished in order for nanites to work.... but because it's tacitly assumed in the game world doesn't mean it's not a problem.
[QUOTE]What book? [/QUOTE]
Man and Machine
[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
The latter was put in deliberately to discourage future authors from writing (more) nanotech that was stupidly over-powerful.[/QUOTE]
the pessimist in me finds this extremely ironic, when you have immortal elves and dragons that level cities. [/QUOTE]
...and Artificial Intelligence....and Mana Storms... and world altering Ghost Dance magic.
Heh, point taken.
Speaking personally though, I would have liked to see a bit less of that in times past.. and have seen a few IEs and Dragons get vapped, if nothing else to clear the landscape from all the clutter.
I could get into a big philosophical discussion about it all (Shadowrun isn't about invulnerability and draconic politics, IMHO), but really it comes down to taste and style: Some people want to play characters that struggle against oppression, other people want ultra powerful Move-by-Wire chromed to the eyeballs Troll Sammies and initiate Elven Physical Mages. The latter outweigh the former, in writing as well as playing.
[QUOTE][QUOTE]
Self replication is emphatically 'out'. Even if it was possible - power and raw materials are huge limitations, it's not something I'd want to see in any cyberpunk game. Too easy to die and not enough on the human scale.[/QUOTE]
The resources are readily available, both in the host and in nature. It would probably mean that the host would wind up consuming a great deal more iron, sugars, carbon and other raw materials, but they are definitely available. [/QUOTE]
Your body goes to an immense amount of effort to try and screen out metals. It's possible, to get heavy metal poisoning from buildup of things like Zinc and Iron, which do find a use in the body in things like Haemoglobin and Cytochrome oxidase. Usually it happens via genetic defect - things like Wilsons disease and hyper-thalassemia. Metals make up about 1 thousandth of a percent of body mass, and all the stuff that is there is all bound up in enzymes as their catalytic centers.
You could theoretically overcome that with something that picks up iron and other metals from the digestive system, but it's going to have to do something other than put it into the bloodstream because it'd poison you.
The big limitation is energy. Changing Aluminium to Aluminium Oxide liberates a hell-of-a-lot of energy - It's the basis of the Thermite reaction. Changing it back requires just as much....they build entire power stations specifically to do that: Bauxite to Aluminium. That's what synthesis is about; breaking and forming chemical bonds. The same happens with carbon: Graphite and diamond are allotropes, but to change on to the other usually requires thousands of atmospheres of pressure and furnace temperatures.
Things like buckytubes and diamond and pure metals are what nanites are all about. Pure metals oxidise (corrode or rust) - with the sole exception of gold. Carbon for building nanites would start from as close to the finished product as possible; buckytubes rather than methanol. It's construction and assembly rather than synthesis, really.
It is theoretically possible to build any chemical in the world from methanol via a sequence of snythetic steps...but we don't, for the simple reason that the energy costs are so damned prohibitive. There is simply no way you could feasibly get enough energy to run a nanite synthesis factory in the body starting from things like sugars. You'd need about fifty dedicated and specialised synthetic steps to make whatever chemical you needed, most of them requiring high pressure, and the energy cost would be so great that you'd find it unsustainable.
Or you use biological enzymes... but no enzyme in the world is going to churn out bucktubes or graphitic carbon sheets.
By the way, there is a nanite synethesis factory in the body, of a sort: It's called bone marrow, testes / ovaries, etc etc etc. These things all produce functional autonomous units of a sort, but they don't do it in the same way as nanites are described. It's biology and biochemistry. In all probability the most feasible way that nanotech will be actually realised is by hijacking some array of biological processes... but that means you don't have the convenient boxes to describe things with like 'genetech' or 'cyberware' or 'bioware'.
[/QUOTE][QUOTE]
The biggest thing to keep in mind about Nanotech is that it should be freakishly expensive. Cutters exist (grudingly), but if the corporation you're running against is willing to plough 20K into a dose to maybe kill you, then you're sure as hell playing in the big leagues.[/QUOTE]
For game balance reasons? I think after gameplay everything scales to the GM's desire. Money, availability, etc. If more nanites were introduced into gameplay, they could be post chargen.[QUOTE]
True enough. You can do whatever you want in the game.... people run all kinds of house rules, some of which I'd never want to see introduced into the main game for balance reasons.
My main argument about hyper-nanotech is suspension of disbelief - a critical factor in effective storytelling, in movies and books alike. Basically, for me, the test 'it it plausible or rationalisable' is a big thing.
(Which makes it all the more ironic in a game that fuses magic and technology
)
Wicked reply martingotthard. Admittedly I am behind on my biosciences... I could look it all up ... but that would be alot of work. 
What about all of the metals that are currently used in the body like titanium and chromed plated prosthetics? Aren't there metals like calcium and magnesium that the body basically ignores? The body ignores ceramics and plastics. (Plastics just degrade over time)
My cousin designed a working motor 6 microns across so I know that a nanite will be on the scale of bacteria like you mentioned... but it is not a living organism... there must be a way that you can circumvent the immune system.
What about all of the metals that are currently used in the body like titanium and chromed plated prosthetics? Aren't there metals like calcium and magnesium that the body basically ignores? The body ignores ceramics and plastics. (Plastics just degrade over time)
My cousin designed a working motor 6 microns across so I know that a nanite will be on the scale of bacteria like you mentioned... but it is not a living organism... there must be a way that you can circumvent the immune system.
| QUOTE |
| You could theoretically overcome that with something that picks up iron and other metals from the digestive system, but it's going to have to do something other than put it into the bloodstream because it'd poison you. |
There could be nanites that just transport raw materials.
Aren't nanites supposed to use the body's magnetic field to function? I cannot think of a viable energy system to power them other wise.
The jist of the post was to spur some ideas for runs and new possiblities of lab tech for runners to discover.
Burning blood sugar. The same thing the body does.
It just means you'll need to eat a bit more, and pay a bit more Lifestyle costs, like you would for a Hyperthyroid gland or Symbiotes.
It just means you'll need to eat a bit more, and pay a bit more Lifestyle costs, like you would for a Hyperthyroid gland or Symbiotes.
Jake 2.0
If you really want to see some nifty stuff that nanotech can do, I suggest reading The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson. if you haven't already, after reading Snow Crash, which is required reading to post on this message board.
| QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman) |
| Jake 2.0 |
Haha, of all of the terrible tv shows in all the world, you had to bring up that one. I couldn't even watch the entire pilot, it was so nonsensical.
Bear in mind that to get Nanotech to do many of the wonderful things you'd like it to do would require technology that really doesn't exist yet in 2070. Man and Machine lists some other valid limitations on nano, if you read carefully.
Consider though, man-portable laser weapons and railguns are easier to make than truly effective GOD-nano as described above, but you don't see them out yet.
Would you pay 8.7 billion to research how to mass-produce laser pistol battery packs that cost 2.6 million each to make? Who'd buy them at that price? You'd never sell enough of them to turn a profit!
Fix-it - I agree; Diamond Age is MANDATORY reading before posting here And even there, the nano was fairly limited.
Consider though, man-portable laser weapons and railguns are easier to make than truly effective GOD-nano as described above, but you don't see them out yet.
Would you pay 8.7 billion
to research how to mass-produce laser pistol battery packs that cost 2.6 million each to make? Who'd buy them at that price? You'd never sell enough of them to turn a profit!Fix-it - I agree; Diamond Age is MANDATORY reading before posting here
And even there, the nano was fairly limited.
Read Moonrise and Moonwar (or Moon Rise and Moon War?) Books by Ben Bova. Pretty interesting what he does with nanotech there too.
| QUOTE (nezumi @ Sep 30 2005, 02:59 PM) | ||
Haha, of all of the terrible tv shows in all the world, you had to bring up that one. I couldn't even watch the entire pilot, it was so nonsensical. |
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