I know this is an old question, but I'm new to the boards and too curious for my own good.

Does this answer your question?

Not fully, i guess. It doesn't say so much about their actual influence in your game, doesn't it?

I will take your two double negatives at face value and affirm "Yes, it does."

Just tried to use some proper english - and failed.

More importantly, does it matter to the average Shadowrunner? I don't think anything remotely related to immortal elves ever graced the streets of Seattle or (insert runner haven here) in our games. The last time we ran anything like that was Harlequin and Harlequin's Back. It might be fun to run something closely related to immortal elf plots, though, if the campaign was crafted well-enough. *shrugs*

If there are immortal elves in my campaign world, which I neither confirm nor deny, they've been too busy keeping their pointy-eared heads down so that they don't get capped by the far more numerous short-timers to go around impersonating historical figures and similarly stupid attention-drawing drek.

I absolutely loved it when it was Harlequin and Ehran and Urdli and a couple of 'maybe' others.... when it was the first bridges between Shadowrun and Earthdawn as prophecy of things to come. One of the best uses of creative writing and crossover that I've ever seen.

When they started popping up under every rock I started hating them, because for a time they were the major plot drivers of the entire universe....in a game that's supposed to be about grit and grime and the low end of life, rather than uber-munckin empowered hero protagonists.

For a time they were responsible for everything cool happening in SR, as Elves are wont to be because Elves are already inherently the wish-fulfilment idols of humanity. Fricking Elves. Fricking Dragons.

I made a submission to kill one of them off in one of the sourcebooks, just to let people know that they actually weren't the demigods that they'd been made out to be. Long-lived, but still fallible.

The immortal elves spend a lot of time tring to stay hidden. So most of the time no one knows they are even there. I use them sometimes, but most of the time they are not even thought about.

Immortal Elves; because sometimes you run out of clay pigeons. Seriously i never have played that level. Dragons and IE just aren't something that you run into, and even if you did you hopefully don't realize it...because if you do you're already dead.

Should be no surprise how I voted.

I find the statless IEs and great dragons to be a cop-out. Some other poster said something similar once - that the movers and shakers should be close to untouchable because they stay hidden, take precautions, and have lots of levers to pull. They shouldn't be untouchable because they are immune to anything the players could conceivably do to them, no matter how much experience or power that they get. That's just lame.

Do they exist in the games I run? Well, sure, I guess. There are Immortal Elves running around Shadowrun, much like Deus is (was) scheming, the Deep Ressonance is enrapturing nerds, gibbering monsters from beyond the threshold of reality wait to feast on our pain and horror, etc, etc.

Do my runners ever interact with them on a meaningful level? No. I did one wild and super-powered campaign when I was new to GMing, haven't had an inclination to go back.

I have nothing against the concept of the Immortal Elves or their place in the fiction, and I wouldn't hesitate to use them if I thought it'd improve my plots to do so. I simply haven't been in that mood for a long time.

Does anyone want to guess how I voted?

"Yes, but much less important?" as in "snack, tasting like chicken"?


We currently play Harlekin, but even the matter of his life expectancy is purely academical. The players are free to make up their own mind.

Since IE's have recently infested my campaign I most certainly used them, but they've got stats, and they're toned down somewhat to make their possible actions in the 5000 year magic-lull more beleivable. No being historical figures, maybe soothsayers and other advisors to actual rulers, but not the rulers themselves. Downcycle magic was possible but only through the use of some hefty bloodmagic (of the death variety) or the luck of a mana-spike. skills unused for so long fade, and a good deal of what karma they earned in the downcycle was thrown into keeping up with the cultures, languages and survival techniques of the times and places they found themselves trying to survive through without the magic that made them so powerful and nigh untouchable in the 4th world. They end up with skills in the 15 range, yeah, but even so they are still trying to get their footing in the 6th world, which is shifting too fast on too many fronts for their ancient minds to keep up without major effort.

That being said, I'm using the info on AH's site as a guideline for their personalities and histories, so I'm keeping it as close to canon I can with the limited resources I have at my disposal.

As to IE's living up to the first part of their name . . . HA! They can die just as easily as any other, just catch them by surprise and put a bullet or ten through their head. Or, hell, just put the bullet through their head, no surprise necessary, just some Wired Reflexes. Karma pool is a powerful tool, but a well prepared and competent Runner team will win every time.

Are they in my game? Yes.

Have I used them? Yes, mostly because one of the PC's unwittingly gave me the perfect opportunity to turn him into an unwitting pawn in the intricate machinations between the Immortals.

Does he know? Eh, not really. He's had some hints (the player, of course, knows all about IE's, but he's a good player and doesn't drag that into the game), but nothing has been said.

Will it ever be said? Well, leaving aside that I moved to Wales, I'd always intended to run through Harlqeuin and Harlequin's Back and drop some clues to the character in that. To a certain degree, the backstory was there to make the story make sense to me, and to maintain its consistency. That being said, it's the kind of story my group like, so i expect it would have raised its profile eventually.

A fair number of votes, 76 as I post this.

So far one of seven people have booted the immortal elves, and in total nearly 2/3rds have decided that they play less of a role in their games than they do in the official text.

From the posts themselves (and judging from the toned down instead of removed), a large part of the negative reaction seems to more related to the stat-less uber elf and mover of all history than the basic concept itself. Which is somewhat expected.

My take:

I love me some immortal elves. They're good times. I'm sure some of them really were rulers or important figures in history—it seems almost inconceivable otherwise, given their vast advantages over humans and their maintenance of human weaknesses and character flaws. That said, do I consider it reasonable that they were responsible for every major achievement or even most? No. Do I find it reasonable that there were a number of things that were either directly or indirectly facilitated by them? Sure.

As for being statless, it makes sense to me. In addition to reflecting the power and treachery accumulated over thousands of years of experience, it also takes the burden off of the GM—reasonably speaking, Harlequin (for example) would have contingency plans beyond those that I can imagine. I'm a fairly bright guy, if I do say so myself, but I'm still working off of twenty years of life experience, most of it not involved in byzantine plots against opponents immensely powerful both personally and politically—you're going to tell me that if I can't think of a way out of a solution, neither should a multiple-thousand-year-old being?

I do wish we saw a few more IE deaths, though. I consider them to fit in with the "gritty" aspect very well, but largely because I assume that every so often an IE can't adapt to the changes in the world and gets him- or herself killed. Admittedly that is probably rare nowadays, as anyone who survived 999-1999 would probably survive 2000-2060 fairly easily.

Incidentally, this is why I don't like the "oh wait, not dead" bit in Dragons of the Sixth World about whatsisname, the Great Dragon shot down in Germany right after the Awakening. The idea that a Great Dragon who succumbed to a bout of passion and threw over planning for brute force would get smacked down by a modern army fit in perfectly with my view of Shadowrun.

~J

To be fair, she isnt exactly living in the most healthy of conditions as it is. I would hardly call it living. Hell for all we know she's lost all her limbs and is stuck wading in a radioactive pool of jello, having her minions bring her nuked cows to eat. *shrugs*

i would vote as:

Don't have enough resources to say, but would likely be no because i dont tend to run so high up for my runners to have any interaction at those levels.

I'm playing an Immortal Elf in one of the games on this forum. Of course, he's an amnesiac who re-Named himself afterwards, so he can't remember anything past when he woke up in the desert 20 years ago, and has the magical power of your typical starting PhysAd (though he's going to be Initiating as soon as possible).

He used to be a Lightbringer and a Questor of the Passion of Building, but now he's just a Totem Way Adept, following Gargoyle.

What BP cost did the GM require you to pay for the IE immunities?

There are IE immunities besides aging?

For pathogens and toxins and effects of that ilk.

I was not aware of that.

All pathogens, toxins, and diseases (as well as age), if I recall correctly.

So, they can't get drunk, ever?

Is alcohol specifically listed as a toxin or pathogen?

Harley doesn't seem to have a problem getting drunk.

He just pretends to get drunk so the other elves will think he is cool, plus it gives him an excuse for acting like an ass.

Like he needs an excuse for acting like an ass.

it is a toxin, regardless of the text.

maybe they get drunk but cannot develop alchohol poisoning

I believe its been stated that he has a spell that lets him "turn them off" as it were. He just plops out a "Vulnerability to Alchohol" spell and drinks away. and if he needs to sober up real fast he just stops sustaining the spell. Same way certain dragons can ala Dot6W.

lol

Shall we just add 'Jack Daniels' to the list of historical figures impersonated by IEs, then?

My mistake.

It must be the drugs. I blame America!

[edit] In reality, I had forgotten about that passage altogether. I was actually thinking of the short story by Tom Dowd (?) where Harley is drunk.

Elves:

As written, elves *are* all about the wish fulfillment. They are depicted as being better looking, exotic, immortal, they know all the secrets of the setting, etc. Elves are just kewler than the other species. In my upcoming game, I'm building off of this, and looking at the natural consequences of this characterization and depiction.

Elves are the physical ideal of metahumanity- tall, slim, good looking and usually wealthy. An average elf is better looking than most humans, and the most beautiful elves put all human supermodels to shame.

The modeling world, acting, news presenters, music, politics, and so forth will all be predominantly elvish. Such endeavors require the height of physical attraction, more so in 2070 than today. Simsense will only increase the demand for physically perfect specimens. This gurantees that elves will dominate, and human models will be a rarity (Ork, Troll, and Dwarf models will exist mainly in race-specific ghetto media).

People assume the best about attractive individuals. Such individuals are seen as being smarter, more competent, and more socially acceptable than their less-well endowed coworkers. Even elves who do not become stars will be promoted faster and be given raises more than their colleagues.

It is a human failing, but the sheer beauty and charisma of elves mean most people will think the best of them. Most people (in-game, mind) are going to have deep seated prejudices about elves, usually of the positive kind. Elf celebrities are the most adored, most loved, most idealized metahuman beings. Essentially, S1m0ne.

(A lot of people, OTOH, are going to resent them, their snobbery, and their gifts. Especially Orks and Trolls, who are looked at as being slow, stupid and ugly to boot.)

What are the consequences of these inferences? Elves will tend to be more wealthy than other humans. They will cluster in the upper financial spectrum. They will dominate most media, politics, social situations, and so on. By all the means most societies use to gauge worth- wealth and appearence- elves will simply beat all other metahuman races.

It seems inevitable that most elves are going to feel themselves superior to other metahumans. Everyone around them will assume they are destined for wealth and power, and experience will tend to bear this out. I do not see how the majority of elves will not become racists, even if in a quiet, unstated way.

Elves will tend to congregate together, to associate together, to socialize together. There are many de-facto "elf only" social clubs and gardening societies and the "good old boy" network is likely to become a "good old elf" network.

The most militant elves will regard themselves as being innately superior to all other metahuman races. This can grow into a racial superiority complex as vitriolic and deadly as a GM wishes. And yes, just as with all such bigotry, this can cause violence.

The most rabid pro-elf racists will form elf-only nations (wait...) or move there, once founded. Most elves will probably show affinity for such nations, even if they live in other countries. Conversely, the actions of those nations will reflect on all elves, even those who loath such racist policies. For the conspiracy minded, all elves will be seen as pawns of a worldwide elven conspiracy.

As for the future of elvish enclaves, once freed of the burden of social interaction with other races, the elf prejudice can grow more virulent, more entrenched, and more vicious. In short order, such nations are likely to become bastions of "natural elvish superiority." Programs to expel non-elves will likely ensue.

(Such racial cleansing can become as dark as the GM wants to deal with. Four reminders: Darfur, Rwanda, Bosnia, Nazi Germany.)

In the absence of racial cleansing policies, the social dominance of elves will be supported by law. Non-elves will be stripped of political power, and a strong bias against hiring non-elves will make most jobs unattainable.

Being a non-elf in such a society is difficult. Racial prejudice and bigotry are the order of the day, and the elvish police (or their flunkys) will take care of elves first, everyone else second. God help you if you're a victim of an elvish criminal.

***

So, yes I'm using immortal elves, but not in the fashion dictated by canon.

I thought that there were plenty of Orcs and Trolls in Tir Tairngir (most of whom are employed in physical labor)?

and our good Buddy Weiser....