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Aku
ok, so i'm probably over analyzing this, but all of a sudden, street index has me confused, and i dont know why, maybe this is explained, better, somewherem, but i didnt see it, and now it's bugging me, because of values <1.

for instance, as my understanding, final cost=cost*si. So, does this mean, that it's possible to get something on the black market, for cheaper than it would be through legit channels?

For instance, the wrist-phone, costs 100 nuyen.gif, with an si of .75. so 100*.75=75.... so I can go to "Best Staple City" (heh concolmerate) and buy a wrist phone legitly (assuming papers are in order) for 100, or bu one from some guy selling them outa a suit case... for 75?

Please tell me I'm some how wrong...
Nikoli
I always added 1 to SI before multiplying, made more sense to me that way.
hyzmarca
double post
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Aku @ Sep 27 2005, 03:05 PM)
ok, so i'm probably over analyzing this,  but all of a sudden, street index has me confused, and i dont know why, maybe this is explained, better, somewherem, but i didnt see it, and now it's bugging me, because of values <1.

for instance, as my understanding, final cost=cost*si. So, does this mean, that it's possible to get something on the black market, for cheaper than it would be through legit channels?

For instance, the wrist-phone, costs 100 nuyen.gif, with an si of .75. so 100*.75=75.... so I can go to "Best Staple City" (heh concolmerate) and buy a wrist phone legitly (assuming papers are in order) for 100, or bu one from some guy selling them outa a suit case... for 75?

Please tell me I'm some how wrong...

Exactly, the guy selling it out of the suitcase is, of course, selling stolen or pirated merchandise.

Why would anyone pay more for stolen or pirated merchanise when you can just walk into any store and get a legit model?
Nikoli
Because the suitcase model doesn't come with the strings attached that buying it legit does, like a credit trail, your face on the screen, that cross referenced witht he sale data just gave the 'Star your new phone #.
Aku
Nikoli: so basically you make an SI of .75 into 1.75? that seems kinda harsh to me as well, but my idea was that SI was really supposed to be cost+(cost*SI), so our 100 nuyen.gif ticket would be.... the same....
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Because the suitcase model doesn't come with the strings attached that buying it legit does, like a credit trail, your face on the screen, that cross referenced witht he sale data just gave the 'Star your new phone #.

Nor does it risk you getting arrested for possession of stolen goods if you get a legit phone account or theft of services if you don't.
Vaevictis
Street index just reflects how hard it is to acquire illegally. A wrist phone is pretty damned common and probably pretty easy to steal, so it costs less stolen than new.

Cmon, tell me that you've never seen or heard of a high end television being sold for a fraction of the list, but you're told, "Don't ask where I got it?" Same thing.
RunnerPaul
Some things are just cheaper to get through illicit channels. Visit your local flea market sometime and you'll get to experience an aproximation of what we're talking about here (though a flea market doesn't quite qualify as illicit, it's most likely shadier than your typical retail establishment).
Jrayjoker
The legal ramifications are a separate thing. know I can go ot and buy some stuff that fell off a truck for less than the cost of something new today. My risk is getting caught, and the crooks want the stuff to move so they don't get caught holding it too.
Nikoli
QUOTE (Aku)
Nikoli: so basically you make an SI of .75 into 1.75? that seems kinda harsh to me as well, but my idea was that SI was really supposed to be cost+(cost*SI), so our 100 nuyen.gif ticket would be.... the same....

Cost +(Cost*SI) = Cost*(SI+1)

Say Cost = 100
SI= .75
Your example
100 + (100*.75)
100 + 75
175
My example
100*(.75+1)
100* 1.75
175
Aku
Runner paul, i wouldnt think that a flea market (for the most part) would constitute anything near illicit, generally, everything there has been paid for ligitly, once, and now people just want to get rid of it one way or another, or just dont know what something is worth.

I think the guy selling something out of a suitcase is the closest example, and even then, he's selling cheap because they're hot, and he wants to make what he can before getting caught. You also run the risk of getting fakes (Fogley's, instead of Oakley's)
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Aku)
Runner paul, i wouldnt think that a flea market (for the most part) would constitute anything near illicit, generally, everything there has been paid for ligitly, once, and now people just want to get rid of it one way or another, or just dont know what something is worth.

Really, flea markets do tend to attract people selling pirated goods. Oene could easily go to a large flea market and find VHS and DVD versions of Star Wars III along with other movies that are still in theaters. I once saw someone selling pirated playstations at a flear market. Not playstation game, playstations. They looked sort of like playstations, acted like playstations, but certainly were not made by Sony.
Velocity
You do not, under any circumstances, add 1 to the Street Index. If the Street Index is below 1, then the item is cheaper on the street.

Bear in mind that most people are not willing to buy things on the black market: it's illegal, for one thing. It also means--as others have mentioned--that there's no warranty and no guarantee that it's new or free from defects. My mother would never buy a television off the back of a truck--I bought my last TV off the back of a truck and saved $300. Most people are like my mother.

As an aside, there can be serious ramifications for purchasing illegal goods. As an easy example, federal law in Canada states that if one is driving a stolen car, one is guilty of a federal crime--even if you really didn't know it was stolen. Buyer beware.
Dog
Thanks Velocity. Now you got me freaking out whenever there's a cop-car behind me....

I agree however, that some things purchased "on the street" are likely obtained with little or no overhead (ie stolen or pirated) and so can be sold for less than retail. Why would you buy something like that in a store then? You tell me.
Meanwhile, the rules of supply and demand suggest that some things on the street will cost more than retail.

If I may use an IRL example. Joe the welfare recipient requires a bus pass, so he gets a voucher from the Public Trustee to pick one up. Why a voucher? Because he's an alcoholic and if he got cash he'd spend it on booze. However, later that day, Joe is really thirsty, and the single mother of five next door has to get to work, so she purchases his $60 bus pass for $20, just enough for a bottle. And everybody's happy, at least for a few hours. Street index on bus pass: .33

It works the other way too. I could go to my doctor and complain about my twisted knee, and get a prescription for pain-killers with codeine. Even if I had to pay for them myself (thank you, insurance people!) I could sell them at a profit to street people at 50-75 cents per pill. Street index on pain killers: 1.5

There's a million factors in determining what something costs, including the perceived value. The kind of people who purchase things on the street may perceive the value of any item different than the rest of us.

So ka?

Critias
Which is part of why, yes, you can probably buy an Ares Predator cheaper in the alley out back than you can over the counter of your local Weapons World -- because you don't know who's been shot in the face with it.
Pinel
There was a longish thread on this subject a few months ago, but I'm much too lazy to look it up... It originated from a question on the SI of the Crescent Laser Axe and why it was under 1.

One of the points hammered to death in that thread is that SI is the imperfect combination of market forces, product characteristics and legal issues. A SI above one usually represents the legal risk of owning the product, or its rarity (or both). A SI below 1 can be explained in various ways:

1) The product is so widely popular that it generates a large number of illegal copies manufactured at lower costs (i.e. the Predator) which cannot be sold legally.

2) The product is a technological failure or misadapted / useless to the shadow community, so it's sold below its "legal price" because there are so few buyers (i.e. the Laser Axe).

3) The product is being replaced by a newer version and the manufacturer decides to kill two birds with one stone by liquidating current stocks on the black market while equipping shadowrunners with gear that will soon be outdated.

Note that past use or wear & tear are not currently factored into gear SI, the way it is in the price of secondhand cyberware. Buying a black-market Predator below its legal price carries no premise that it was used in a crime or may blow up in your face. I have a house rule in my games to cover such situations when runners want a piece of gear that they can't afford or takes too long to get: they can reduce price or availability or waiting time by accepting "item flaws" like poor craftsmanship, criminal history, distinctive effect, etc.. I'm sure that rule already exists in one of the many SR books I've yet to buy smile.gif
Nikoli
That sounds like a good thing to add to SR4's Arsenal book.
Velocity
QUOTE (Dog)
Thanks Velocity.  Now you got me freaking out whenever there's a cop-car behind me....

You're welcome. wink.gif I learned this the hard way, after being a passenger in a car that was--unbeknownst to both myself and the driver--stolen goods. We were both arrested and charged with a federal offense as a result.

Lesson: no matter how good the price or how honest-looking the seller, never ever buy a used car that doesn't have all its papers up-to-date. If the seller says "we'll get together next week to sign over the registration," you say "goodbye." smile.gif
Dog
Zut alors!
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