Full Version: "Military-Grade" equipment
A fair bit of stuff is described as "military-grade" in the sourcebooks--hardened military armor and the Guardian Angel nano-biomonitor, for example. What level of actual military usage does this imply? I'm trying to put together an idea of how actual soldiers are equipped in Shadowrun, and I have trouble seeing every individual grunt packing hardened armor, a tactical computer, and a Guardian Angel. But I could be wrong. Ideas?
You have level of grunts and levels of equipment.
There have been a couple of threads on the subject, but look at it this way:
The more advanced the personal gear, the higher up the food chain it will be issued.
Rank-and-file infantry probably won't be kitted in Heavy Mil-Spec hard armor. However, SEALs or Green Berets might see this stuff. Or similar specialist units with an equally high degree of training.
The punchline is -- generally speaking, large scale troop movements are considered to be outdated and the trend is geared towards smaller, more intensely trained units.
Others here could speak more intelligently to the subject, but the US model was patterened on fighting another world war in Europe or Asia against equally large foes like the USSR or even China.
Current US training methods are geared towards taking as many recruits and turning them into vaguely functional soldiers with the shortest amount of turn-around time.
The US is supposed to be developing a "rapid response" model of forces capable of being quickly dispatched to any region necessary.
Of course, if we insist on toppling governments in recent fashion, the US may have to re-think that model.
-Siege
There have been a couple of threads on the subject, but look at it this way:
The more advanced the personal gear, the higher up the food chain it will be issued.
Rank-and-file infantry probably won't be kitted in Heavy Mil-Spec hard armor. However, SEALs or Green Berets might see this stuff. Or similar specialist units with an equally high degree of training.
The punchline is -- generally speaking, large scale troop movements are considered to be outdated and the trend is geared towards smaller, more intensely trained units.
Others here could speak more intelligently to the subject, but the US model was patterened on fighting another world war in Europe or Asia against equally large foes like the USSR or even China.
Current US training methods are geared towards taking as many recruits and turning them into vaguely functional soldiers with the shortest amount of turn-around time.
The US is supposed to be developing a "rapid response" model of forces capable of being quickly dispatched to any region necessary.
Of course, if we insist on toppling governments in recent fashion, the US may have to re-think that model.
-Siege
It would also depend on what type of unit and the combat role that the troops are expected to carry out. For example Mechanized infantry could be expected to be equipped with heavier weapons and armor than their heliborne or airborne equivilents. It would also depend on the nation's defence budget and climate. In some places the troops might still be using the ubiqious AKM...
For militaries that might be corporate sponsored one could expect all teh staops to be pulled. For example, the sec-forces guarding a Delta clinic might be heavy armored cybered monsters.
For militaries that might be corporate sponsored one could expect all teh staops to be pulled. For example, the sec-forces guarding a Delta clinic might be heavy armored cybered monsters.
Actually, and this is just my opinion (spooled from what I've read of Tzeen's opinions and influenced in part about what one of my characters who did serve in the military might have to say about this stuff), mil-spec armor won't be used by the government militaries but by corporate militaries - and even that's a big maybe. The reason? Too damned heavy and you're just begging to be a target; mil-spec violates the part of your training that screams to avoid bullets and duck for cover at every opportunity. Mil-spec are for those guys who're gonna be exposed all the time, and even then, they're gonna be out as little as possible.
For most grunts, the emphasis is on lightness: try to carry as much as you can within a certain frame of weight, like 50 kg or something (I'm not really sure). Mil-spec armor just takes up a whole lotta weight that can be used by the really important stuff like communications, medical gear, and ammo (and trust me, when your unit's stuck and needs air support right fraggin' now, the guy with the comm gear suddenly becomes your best friend in the whole wide world). Judging from the hot spots listed in FoF - Africa, Atzlan, and Australia - I'd see more and more militaries of entities that have interests in those areas to be using vests and vests with plates, as they're lighter and allow for more ventilation than almost anything else. Mil-spec armor might be used in operations that're gonna last half an hour, but any longer than that, and fatigue gets to sit in...and as any grunt knows, any op that command says should be quick and easy ain't. Best to stick to a vest, and if you can get it, a vest with gel packs backed up with plates (aka tortoise shells). Sure, the plates're a littler heavier, but the higher and higher you get up the food chain - from grunts to specops (like SEALs in UCAS or Section Three of SK) to the guys that specops look up to (for the UCAS, that'd be Delta, for SK, that'd be Section One) - the more and more the fear of bullets is drummed out of you (for example, a wall of suppressive fire becomes a tactical challenge instead of the instantaneous death most civvies think it is) and the more chances you take. Then you feel that the plates might be a good thing.
Likewise, the Savelette probably wouldn't be the accepted heavy pistol (too flashy, undependable smartlink, too heavy, wastes ammo too fast), the Ares Predator would - not the II, not the III, the Predator. The kits are external for easier repairs, the Predator because it's common, probably very easy to fix, and dirt cheap. SpecOps get the II and III, and they'll usually end up customizing it to high-heaven. But wait, aren't pistols the last resort weapon for a soldier? Well, no, the last resort weapon is a knife, and for those who have the training, H2H combat, but the pistol is the last resort firearm for a solider, which is why every shot has to count, which is why a three-round burst is too much of a risk [in the game, of course. In RL, a three-round burst is probably a huge advantage].
As for assault rifles, I see the Colt M22a2 in heavy usage, as well as the M-23, or at least an M22 sans the grenade launcher (after all, the launcher's integrated into the system, when the pattern of most modern assault weapons is a removable accessory to cut down on weight. When you run out of grenades, the launcher's dead weight anyways so just carry a bunch of old-fashioned tossers, I guess). Why not an Ares Alpha? Probably because [the definition in the FoF indicates that] it has too many computerized parts, an integrated and unremovable grenade launcher with specially-made grenades, lacks iron sights, and it's somewhat heavy. Besides, the M23 is based on the tried and true M16, and any grunt can break that down in less than a minute; the same goes for the Kalishakov series: the training hasn't changed much since the 1960s, and grunts keep on finding shortcuts, in my humble and sadly uninformed opinion. In addition, the M22A2 and M23 can freely trade clips with anything that uses the NATO 5.56 standard, but the Alpha is the first assault rifle from that corp - if you look at the FoF, the clip is straight, meaning it can probably only be used by that rifle. Nuh-uh: no way am I gonna use a proprietary system when my ass is on the line - sure, all assault rifles can [by in-game rules] share ammo, but it sucks being pinned down behind a wall while calling in for backup for the fifth time trying to reload an Alpha clip with ammo you've got to dig out from your dead opponent's banana clips, then feeling your heart jump into your throat as the electronic recoil compensation's batteries run out of charge. Ares still hasn't given us a straight answer to the "yeah, great gun, but how long do the batteries run before they geek?" question, and replacing a battery is just another drill I don't want to waste my time on: trying to take apart an Ares is like taking apart a computer with a bunch of rifle parts inside.
As for the tactical computer and guardian angel, this is just MY personal opinion, but I wouldn't see them in the hands of your average grunt either, or even your average SpecOp, who'd deride it as a newfangled toy that takes up valuable essence that can be used for other things, like combat ware. Rather, I'd see it in the hands of officers (NCOs? Correct me here, someone. I'm not on steady footing with this noncommissioned/commissioned officer stuff) who're trained to use it and how to integrate their abilities with those of the units they're supposed to lead. (For example, say we get an officer with his cute little deltaware taccomp and all this nice little sensory gear, well, fine. He's trained to give us direction by using that tac with our battletac and staying the hell out of our way.) SAme thing goes for the GA: that's the officer's thing, not ours - we're used to getting shot up, that's why we have a medic on our team. If we were suddenly all implanted with GAs, then the medic's training is somewhat wasted (yeah, I know the GA's a safety net, but again, our medic is one of the best) and that's a lost investment (waste of training and waste of money when the nanos leak...as they so often will). Give it to the officer, who shouldn't get shot up, and then the investment's sound (so long as he doesn't do something stupid). If I recall correctly, the government spends a whole lot more cash grooming an officer (say someone from West Point Academy or whatever) than they do a grunt, and if (IF) all things are relative, then an officer who's gonna take command of a SpecOps unit is still going to be backed up by more cash than the SpecOp himself, even if the SpecOp is the guy who's going to make mincemeat out of your character.
Again, that's only a half-informed opinion, I could be wrong (and I'm sure Rain, Ray, or Tzeen is willing to fill in the gaps or make the corrections). And the PoVs are mixed up, but what the hell, we can't have everything.
For most grunts, the emphasis is on lightness: try to carry as much as you can within a certain frame of weight, like 50 kg or something (I'm not really sure). Mil-spec armor just takes up a whole lotta weight that can be used by the really important stuff like communications, medical gear, and ammo (and trust me, when your unit's stuck and needs air support right fraggin' now, the guy with the comm gear suddenly becomes your best friend in the whole wide world). Judging from the hot spots listed in FoF - Africa, Atzlan, and Australia - I'd see more and more militaries of entities that have interests in those areas to be using vests and vests with plates, as they're lighter and allow for more ventilation than almost anything else. Mil-spec armor might be used in operations that're gonna last half an hour, but any longer than that, and fatigue gets to sit in...and as any grunt knows, any op that command says should be quick and easy ain't. Best to stick to a vest, and if you can get it, a vest with gel packs backed up with plates (aka tortoise shells). Sure, the plates're a littler heavier, but the higher and higher you get up the food chain - from grunts to specops (like SEALs in UCAS or Section Three of SK) to the guys that specops look up to (for the UCAS, that'd be Delta, for SK, that'd be Section One) - the more and more the fear of bullets is drummed out of you (for example, a wall of suppressive fire becomes a tactical challenge instead of the instantaneous death most civvies think it is) and the more chances you take. Then you feel that the plates might be a good thing.
Likewise, the Savelette probably wouldn't be the accepted heavy pistol (too flashy, undependable smartlink, too heavy, wastes ammo too fast), the Ares Predator would - not the II, not the III, the Predator. The kits are external for easier repairs, the Predator because it's common, probably very easy to fix, and dirt cheap. SpecOps get the II and III, and they'll usually end up customizing it to high-heaven. But wait, aren't pistols the last resort weapon for a soldier? Well, no, the last resort weapon is a knife, and for those who have the training, H2H combat, but the pistol is the last resort firearm for a solider, which is why every shot has to count, which is why a three-round burst is too much of a risk [in the game, of course. In RL, a three-round burst is probably a huge advantage].
As for assault rifles, I see the Colt M22a2 in heavy usage, as well as the M-23, or at least an M22 sans the grenade launcher (after all, the launcher's integrated into the system, when the pattern of most modern assault weapons is a removable accessory to cut down on weight. When you run out of grenades, the launcher's dead weight anyways so just carry a bunch of old-fashioned tossers, I guess). Why not an Ares Alpha? Probably because [the definition in the FoF indicates that] it has too many computerized parts, an integrated and unremovable grenade launcher with specially-made grenades, lacks iron sights, and it's somewhat heavy. Besides, the M23 is based on the tried and true M16, and any grunt can break that down in less than a minute; the same goes for the Kalishakov series: the training hasn't changed much since the 1960s, and grunts keep on finding shortcuts, in my humble and sadly uninformed opinion. In addition, the M22A2 and M23 can freely trade clips with anything that uses the NATO 5.56 standard, but the Alpha is the first assault rifle from that corp - if you look at the FoF, the clip is straight, meaning it can probably only be used by that rifle. Nuh-uh: no way am I gonna use a proprietary system when my ass is on the line - sure, all assault rifles can [by in-game rules] share ammo, but it sucks being pinned down behind a wall while calling in for backup for the fifth time trying to reload an Alpha clip with ammo you've got to dig out from your dead opponent's banana clips, then feeling your heart jump into your throat as the electronic recoil compensation's batteries run out of charge. Ares still hasn't given us a straight answer to the "yeah, great gun, but how long do the batteries run before they geek?" question, and replacing a battery is just another drill I don't want to waste my time on: trying to take apart an Ares is like taking apart a computer with a bunch of rifle parts inside.
As for the tactical computer and guardian angel, this is just MY personal opinion, but I wouldn't see them in the hands of your average grunt either, or even your average SpecOp, who'd deride it as a newfangled toy that takes up valuable essence that can be used for other things, like combat ware. Rather, I'd see it in the hands of officers (NCOs? Correct me here, someone. I'm not on steady footing with this noncommissioned/commissioned officer stuff) who're trained to use it and how to integrate their abilities with those of the units they're supposed to lead. (For example, say we get an officer with his cute little deltaware taccomp and all this nice little sensory gear, well, fine. He's trained to give us direction by using that tac with our battletac and staying the hell out of our way.) SAme thing goes for the GA: that's the officer's thing, not ours - we're used to getting shot up, that's why we have a medic on our team. If we were suddenly all implanted with GAs, then the medic's training is somewhat wasted (yeah, I know the GA's a safety net, but again, our medic is one of the best) and that's a lost investment (waste of training and waste of money when the nanos leak...as they so often will). Give it to the officer, who shouldn't get shot up, and then the investment's sound (so long as he doesn't do something stupid). If I recall correctly, the government spends a whole lot more cash grooming an officer (say someone from West Point Academy or whatever) than they do a grunt, and if (IF) all things are relative, then an officer who's gonna take command of a SpecOps unit is still going to be backed up by more cash than the SpecOp himself, even if the SpecOp is the guy who's going to make mincemeat out of your character.
Again, that's only a half-informed opinion, I could be wrong (and I'm sure Rain, Ray, or Tzeen is willing to fill in the gaps or make the corrections). And the PoVs are mixed up, but what the hell, we can't have everything.
Figuring out the soldier:
a) Take one step back from "might work someday soon" projects like the US Landwarrior and look at less ambitious but currently fielded! systems like the cut-down Franco-German system.
b) Choose the type of army you want
1) Professional Officer/Sergeant core with conscript/short term grunt/corporals
2) All-professional army with short service terms (avg. 4 years)
3) All-professional army with long service terms/lifers
c) Remember that cyberware needs maintenance and batteries and choose the amount of REMF's[1] you can accept
d) Choose your type of war
1) Short term "we wreck&kill - you rebuild" type missions
2) All out "The Amis are coming" defence of the homeland wars [2]
3) Long term "Seems like we'll pull anti-guerilla duty for the next decade" wars
e) Remember that you'll train your soldiers for 3-6 month before they are fit for their job. And training, specially basic, is for building confidence in oneself. So even if you implant cyber, you'll do so after the initial training
f) Remember that current generation Infantry Fighting Vehicles / Armored Personal carriers (IFV/APC) are as tall as they can get without becoming too visible. And even the biggest (german MARDER I) is still relatively small for a fully equiped soldier of 190cm/110kg. Same for transport trucks. Also remember that soldiers need at least an average intelligence in a modern army. So don't expect to see Trolls in frontline service since they don't fit in the vehicles and require specialised gear (Elv, Human, Ork can use the same equipment[6]) For the same reasons don't expect dwarfs. They are too slow and have problems with most obstacles[7]
Depending on this, you'll get your army:
Typ1: b1, d2 SR-Example: German Army
Cyberware is few and restricted to "Special Forces" with a long term service contract (12 years, life) After all the majority of soldiers will be out after about
two years.
Technologie is falling into the "rugged and serviceable" type like semi-auto/burst only battle rifles, external grenade launchers and classic GPMG
Armor is "shrapnel proof" light stuff like the Camo Uniform, likely with chemical/IR-damping.
The helmet will have smartgoggles+Light Intensifier maybe integrated in a shrapnel-proof visor. An integral gas-mask is possible.
Soldiers might have a short range (<=500m) radio to replace the corporal screaming commands[4] Squad/Platoon will have sturdy, lightwight mid-range (<15km) radios with good equipment. All radios will have a landline option for fighting from fixed position
Drohnes are few and restricted to the staff intelligence (S2) unit. The exception will be sentry guns that will be integrated on the platoon / squad level of infantrie units and be used as ATGM / RPG plattforms[3]
Depending on the time a conscript spends in training this army can also pull of d3 type missions (look at SFOR/IFOR) rotating troops every 6-12 month
Magic will be a batallion or even brigade level thing
Typ 2: b2, d1 SR-Example: UCAS army
Not much changes from Typ 1 actually. The problem remains that the troops will be back in civies after a rather short time. Maybe some financial sponsorship for useful cyber with civilian applications like datajacks and low-level rigger gear if your job in the military can make use of the stuff
On this level every soldier will have a radio and some platoon-level drones will appear.
Weapons will be halfway between the OICW err Ares Alpha and the M16/M203 combo with every person having a grenade launcher since selection of troop and training should allow for the extra 1.5kg of the launcher.
This unit can pull d2/d3 missions but will have some more difficulties with it, since more toys mean a larger supply need and therefor a weaker underbelly[5]
BattleTac for the vehicles is standard and each platoon leader will have a system too since platoons are still the smallest common maneuver unit
Typ 3: b3, d1 SR-Example: Corp Specforce
On this level you are in for either a long (10+ years) term or eternity. This is the level that IRL only few military units achive. Starting with choosen specimins and with low personal turnover, initial investmenst become secondary to preserving once assets and the time/money spend in training.
The limiting factor here is maintenance and long-term operationability as well as team-capabilities. This rules out:
High-Essence drain systems
Delta-grade cyber
Cyberlimbs/Torsos/Heads
Expect most of the "nuissance supply" tech stuff to be integrated. This means:
Smartgun
Light Intensifier Eyes w/Flash Protection and ImageLink (Maybe an Opticam)
Maybe a cyberear w/Recorder
Radio w/Encryption (and linked to the eye/ear when recorders are there)
Datajack for loading new encryption keys
Multi-Slot Chipjack for map data
And to protect the investment:
Some light dermal armor, likely Orthoskin due to self-repair (Sheat-1 or Ortho-2)
Implanted Bio-Monitor and Injector or a Guardian Nano-System
Synthecardium as a cheap boost to endurance
For some specialists
Vehicle Control Rigs
Muscle enhancement for artillery / heavy weapon operator
Weapons will be the most complex stuff that, given enough care, can survive in the field.
Mage support will be integral to certain SpecOps platoons and integrated on company/batallion level otherwise
Expect micro-drones for local recon and some robotic plattforms for support weapons duty
Armor for most missions will still be light but better integrated and include chemseal/thermoseal as well as a integrated helmet. A suit computer or BattleTac is part of the system.
Birdy
[1] Rear Echolon Mother F....ers
[2] Hey, the Russians never trained droppin tacnukes on my hometown
[3] Such a system using the Panzerfaust-3 RPG system already exists!
[4] Also I doubt any Corporal worth his tabs will use it.
[5] Q: How do you kill an M1 Abrahams?
A: Shoot his unarmored tanker truck and watch him die of thirst
[6] German army kept clothes for humans from 170-205cm in stock
[7] Running modifier 2 and did you ever see a 140cm guy trying to get over a 200cm wall?
a) Take one step back from "might work someday soon" projects like the US Landwarrior and look at less ambitious but currently fielded! systems like the cut-down Franco-German system.
b) Choose the type of army you want
1) Professional Officer/Sergeant core with conscript/short term grunt/corporals
2) All-professional army with short service terms (avg. 4 years)
3) All-professional army with long service terms/lifers
c) Remember that cyberware needs maintenance and batteries and choose the amount of REMF's[1] you can accept
d) Choose your type of war
1) Short term "we wreck&kill - you rebuild" type missions
2) All out "The Amis are coming" defence of the homeland wars [2]
3) Long term "Seems like we'll pull anti-guerilla duty for the next decade" wars
e) Remember that you'll train your soldiers for 3-6 month before they are fit for their job. And training, specially basic, is for building confidence in oneself. So even if you implant cyber, you'll do so after the initial training
f) Remember that current generation Infantry Fighting Vehicles / Armored Personal carriers (IFV/APC) are as tall as they can get without becoming too visible. And even the biggest (german MARDER I) is still relatively small for a fully equiped soldier of 190cm/110kg. Same for transport trucks. Also remember that soldiers need at least an average intelligence in a modern army. So don't expect to see Trolls in frontline service since they don't fit in the vehicles and require specialised gear (Elv, Human, Ork can use the same equipment[6]) For the same reasons don't expect dwarfs. They are too slow and have problems with most obstacles[7]
Depending on this, you'll get your army:
Typ1: b1, d2 SR-Example: German Army
Cyberware is few and restricted to "Special Forces" with a long term service contract (12 years, life) After all the majority of soldiers will be out after about
two years.
Technologie is falling into the "rugged and serviceable" type like semi-auto/burst only battle rifles, external grenade launchers and classic GPMG
Armor is "shrapnel proof" light stuff like the Camo Uniform, likely with chemical/IR-damping.
The helmet will have smartgoggles+Light Intensifier maybe integrated in a shrapnel-proof visor. An integral gas-mask is possible.
Soldiers might have a short range (<=500m) radio to replace the corporal screaming commands[4] Squad/Platoon will have sturdy, lightwight mid-range (<15km) radios with good equipment. All radios will have a landline option for fighting from fixed position
Drohnes are few and restricted to the staff intelligence (S2) unit. The exception will be sentry guns that will be integrated on the platoon / squad level of infantrie units and be used as ATGM / RPG plattforms[3]
Depending on the time a conscript spends in training this army can also pull of d3 type missions (look at SFOR/IFOR) rotating troops every 6-12 month
Magic will be a batallion or even brigade level thing
Typ 2: b2, d1 SR-Example: UCAS army
Not much changes from Typ 1 actually. The problem remains that the troops will be back in civies after a rather short time. Maybe some financial sponsorship for useful cyber with civilian applications like datajacks and low-level rigger gear if your job in the military can make use of the stuff
On this level every soldier will have a radio and some platoon-level drones will appear.
Weapons will be halfway between the OICW err Ares Alpha and the M16/M203 combo with every person having a grenade launcher since selection of troop and training should allow for the extra 1.5kg of the launcher.
This unit can pull d2/d3 missions but will have some more difficulties with it, since more toys mean a larger supply need and therefor a weaker underbelly[5]
BattleTac for the vehicles is standard and each platoon leader will have a system too since platoons are still the smallest common maneuver unit
Typ 3: b3, d1 SR-Example: Corp Specforce
On this level you are in for either a long (10+ years) term or eternity. This is the level that IRL only few military units achive. Starting with choosen specimins and with low personal turnover, initial investmenst become secondary to preserving once assets and the time/money spend in training.
The limiting factor here is maintenance and long-term operationability as well as team-capabilities. This rules out:
High-Essence drain systems
Delta-grade cyber
Cyberlimbs/Torsos/Heads
Expect most of the "nuissance supply" tech stuff to be integrated. This means:
Smartgun
Light Intensifier Eyes w/Flash Protection and ImageLink (Maybe an Opticam)
Maybe a cyberear w/Recorder
Radio w/Encryption (and linked to the eye/ear when recorders are there)
Datajack for loading new encryption keys
Multi-Slot Chipjack for map data
And to protect the investment:
Some light dermal armor, likely Orthoskin due to self-repair (Sheat-1 or Ortho-2)
Implanted Bio-Monitor and Injector or a Guardian Nano-System
Synthecardium as a cheap boost to endurance
For some specialists
Vehicle Control Rigs
Muscle enhancement for artillery / heavy weapon operator
Weapons will be the most complex stuff that, given enough care, can survive in the field.
Mage support will be integral to certain SpecOps platoons and integrated on company/batallion level otherwise
Expect micro-drones for local recon and some robotic plattforms for support weapons duty
Armor for most missions will still be light but better integrated and include chemseal/thermoseal as well as a integrated helmet. A suit computer or BattleTac is part of the system.
Birdy
[1] Rear Echolon Mother F....ers
[2] Hey, the Russians never trained droppin tacnukes on my hometown
[3] Such a system using the Panzerfaust-3 RPG system already exists!
[4] Also I doubt any Corporal worth his tabs will use it.
[5] Q: How do you kill an M1 Abrahams?
A: Shoot his unarmored tanker truck and watch him die of thirst
[6] German army kept clothes for humans from 170-205cm in stock
[7] Running modifier 2 and did you ever see a 140cm guy trying to get over a 200cm wall?
Interesting analysis, and I'll keep it in mind. Again, I'm still wondering what the resident experts (at least, the ones I know) have to say about this...
I realize you weren't referring to me, but you might drop a name so they know who you're talking about. 
-Siege
-Siege
Wow. Thanks very much, AK404 and Birdy--that was WAY more than I was expecting, and it cleared up a lot of things for me.
If I every come up with anything useful as a result, I'll post it here.
If I every come up with anything useful as a result, I'll post it here.
| QUOTE (ak404 wrote) |
but the higher and higher you get up the food chain - from grunts to specops (like SEALs in UCAS or Section Three of SK) to the guys that specops look up to (for the UCAS, that'd be Delta, for SK, that'd be Section One) |
Not that i'm doubting you but where is the infomation on section one and three? it's just that SK is my fav corp and i'd like to know.
That information comes courtesy of Mr. Eric Johnson, and can be found here: http://www.geocities.com/flanker562/SSG/SSG.htm
AK404, you're like the student who grew up and became the teacher. Makes me all sentimental and shit. *sniffle*
My analysis is forthcoming. My apologies for being away, but I have been unavoidably detained. Sadly, I have a very busy day ahead of me again today.
AK404, you're like the student who grew up and became the teacher. Makes me all sentimental and shit. *sniffle*
My analysis is forthcoming. My apologies for being away, but I have been unavoidably detained. Sadly, I have a very busy day ahead of me again today.
Okay, I've now had a chance to digest this thread in its entirety. I don't have time to begin the lesson just yet, but here's a few things to chew on before class:
1) AK404 is starting to think along the right lines. Such a good pupil.
2) Birdy makes a good, if long-winded point. Cost is an extremely important factor when determining how a military force is equipped. More on this later. Much more.
3) The two greatest factors in determining an individual soldier's equipment are Role and Cost. I capitalize these terms because we will be be coming back later to discuss each in detail.
4) As a general rule, the term Military Grade implies that this equipment is available only to military forces. Therefore, this equipment will not be found in the hands of corporate security units, cops, and only rarely seen in mercenary units. However, this does not necessarily mean that the military will use military gear to the exclusion of everything else.
5) Special forces soldiers are often allowed to select their own gear, within reason. For example, a buddy of mine who served in the first Gulf War met up with a squad of SEALs about to head out on a recon mission. They were all equipped with non-standard gear, and in fact one guy was carrying a pair of Mac 10 submachine guns as his primary weapon. When asked why, he stated that it was simply a matter of personal preference.
1) AK404 is starting to think along the right lines. Such a good pupil.
2) Birdy makes a good, if long-winded point. Cost is an extremely important factor when determining how a military force is equipped. More on this later. Much more.
3) The two greatest factors in determining an individual soldier's equipment are Role and Cost. I capitalize these terms because we will be be coming back later to discuss each in detail.
4) As a general rule, the term Military Grade implies that this equipment is available only to military forces. Therefore, this equipment will not be found in the hands of corporate security units, cops, and only rarely seen in mercenary units. However, this does not necessarily mean that the military will use military gear to the exclusion of everything else.
5) Special forces soldiers are often allowed to select their own gear, within reason. For example, a buddy of mine who served in the first Gulf War met up with a squad of SEALs about to head out on a recon mission. They were all equipped with non-standard gear, and in fact one guy was carrying a pair of Mac 10 submachine guns as his primary weapon. When asked why, he stated that it was simply a matter of personal preference.
thanks for that link rain, a good little read. (tho i only did the first page)
Thanks, Rain; I don't think I'm doing too badly for someone who doesn't read up on his military fiction (a couple of articles here and there, that's about it). However, I'm still focusing on small units like SK Teams One and Three or Delta, ignoring larger things like the UCAS Marines.
My opinion is, and always has been, that the concept of "military-only" equipment is fairly overrated: the higher-up a soldier gets, the less fancy his toys are. The KISS principle, if you will - this is one of the reasons that the Ares Alpha is commonplace with corporate soliders and law enforcement groups, but once you start dealing with real military, they get back down to the basic M22a1 or something. Too fancy means too complicated; too complicated means not simple. Not simple means your gun's operating system shorts out when you find out that the waterproof seals are also too complicated. Then your fancy gun becomes dead weight, and dead weight sucks. Military-only equipment, then, is never found in the form of weapons or armor, but as communications equipment, encryption gear, and cyberware for officers who are going to be as far away from combat as possible.
Just reiterating MHO.
OK, got that equipment thing down, now need to start working on my comprehension of chains of command...
My opinion is, and always has been, that the concept of "military-only" equipment is fairly overrated: the higher-up a soldier gets, the less fancy his toys are. The KISS principle, if you will - this is one of the reasons that the Ares Alpha is commonplace with corporate soliders and law enforcement groups, but once you start dealing with real military, they get back down to the basic M22a1 or something. Too fancy means too complicated; too complicated means not simple. Not simple means your gun's operating system shorts out when you find out that the waterproof seals are also too complicated. Then your fancy gun becomes dead weight, and dead weight sucks. Military-only equipment, then, is never found in the form of weapons or armor, but as communications equipment, encryption gear, and cyberware for officers who are going to be as far away from combat as possible.
Just reiterating MHO.
OK, got that equipment thing down, now need to start working on my comprehension of chains of command...
Actually, I think it goes the other way round -- spec ops get the fancy toys to play with.
Expensive and complicated because they are held to a higher level of performance and ability.
As you move down the relative food chain on infantry, you do see less complex and more common-place gear.
-Siege
Expensive and complicated because they are held to a higher level of performance and ability.
As you move down the relative food chain on infantry, you do see less complex and more common-place gear.
-Siege
Again, Siege, I'd put it up to a personal preference sort of thing. Personally, complicated means that repairs can't be done on field without a specialized toolkit, which is bad. Expensive and simple, I can see. Complicated...well, that goes to corp doggies who stay in the nice city.
On the other hand, regular troops are usually in the field for a relatively long period of time, whereas Spec-Ops troops usually get rather shorter assignments.
that depends on the specops group. there's a lot of 'em--the guys that direct fire, stuff like that mainly--that pretty much stay in the field; if they're not training, they're doing it for real.
as far as military equipment goes, most of the stuff is pretty hard to break; despite how things work in the movies, they don't often hand out 'experimental' equipment for real-world missions. if stuff does break, it's usually hard to fix--it's not the job of the guys on the ground to fix equipment, beyond operator-level stuff.
as far as military equipment goes, most of the stuff is pretty hard to break; despite how things work in the movies, they don't often hand out 'experimental' equipment for real-world missions. if stuff does break, it's usually hard to fix--it's not the job of the guys on the ground to fix equipment, beyond operator-level stuff.
I understand that. My point was that more often than not Spec-ops units can get proper maintenance for their equipment, whereas a line unit might not have such opportunities.
Yes - for things like the SEAL units who do "simple" in and out operations. Many units, however, get posted to long term assignments such as training native parties for geurilla actions - these folk have no support. They get dropped off and then picked up a few months down the line. Who do you get to fix your Ares Redline™ then?
We're not saying "experimental", but rather "not commonly seen in operation".
TLC or Discovery has a show called "Tactical to Practical" which covers military innovations that were later declassified and moved into the mainstream.
SCUBA gear and rebreathers for divers are perfect examples.
For that matter, you can find "night vision goggles" geared to the civilian market.
Long-term assets, like Army LRRPs or Green Berets would have solid performance gear that are easy to maintain in the field. Short-term assets like SEALs would be more inclined to use the more complicated gear because the mission deployment is far more limited.
However, in SR the world is entirely at your mercy: go nuts!
-Siege
TLC or Discovery has a show called "Tactical to Practical" which covers military innovations that were later declassified and moved into the mainstream.
SCUBA gear and rebreathers for divers are perfect examples.
For that matter, you can find "night vision goggles" geared to the civilian market.
Long-term assets, like Army LRRPs or Green Berets would have solid performance gear that are easy to maintain in the field. Short-term assets like SEALs would be more inclined to use the more complicated gear because the mission deployment is far more limited.
However, in SR the world is entirely at your mercy: go nuts!
-Siege
You guys must remember that in the modern world ANY soldier is expensive, and the loss of one is frighteningly so.
A force like the UCAS, where there is money to spend, will have armor. Hell, the guys in Iraq are wearing kevelar/ceramic vests now. When it's available for 15,000, and stops most small arms cold, you're damned right they're going to give it to their troops.
Why? Because right now, they have to pay out 50,000 for a dead troop. If he's single and doesn't leave any dependant behind. If there's a wife and a couple of kids, it's 50,000 up front and close to 3000 a month, adjusted up each year based on cost of living, forever. The last civil war widow getting government money died in the 1960's. There's still thousands of American women getting over 2000 a month for the husband who died in WW1.
15,000 is a small price to pay.
And don't get me started on the high price of medical care. You protect your professional soldiers as well as possible because you spent a whole lot of money training them, and you'll spend a whole lot more if they die.
A force like the UCAS, where there is money to spend, will have armor. Hell, the guys in Iraq are wearing kevelar/ceramic vests now. When it's available for 15,000, and stops most small arms cold, you're damned right they're going to give it to their troops.
Why? Because right now, they have to pay out 50,000 for a dead troop. If he's single and doesn't leave any dependant behind. If there's a wife and a couple of kids, it's 50,000 up front and close to 3000 a month, adjusted up each year based on cost of living, forever. The last civil war widow getting government money died in the 1960's. There's still thousands of American women getting over 2000 a month for the husband who died in WW1.
15,000 is a small price to pay.
And don't get me started on the high price of medical care. You protect your professional soldiers as well as possible because you spent a whole lot of money training them, and you'll spend a whole lot more if they die.
Which is why you have downsizing of standard troops and promoting reserves and Guardsmen.
Be that as it may, there's a practical limit to how much armor you will drop on your troops given the average grunt is hauling around close to 100 pounds of gear.
1. Weight.
2. Encumberance.
3. Heat -- kevlar body armor and heat don't mix. Now toss gear into the mix and go running.
Full body sec and military armor are wonderful toys, but prolonged deployment makes it impractical. Hell, the tech exists for people to be outfitted in heavy duty, full body armor.
-Siege
Be that as it may, there's a practical limit to how much armor you will drop on your troops given the average grunt is hauling around close to 100 pounds of gear.
1. Weight.
2. Encumberance.
3. Heat -- kevlar body armor and heat don't mix. Now toss gear into the mix and go running.
Full body sec and military armor are wonderful toys, but prolonged deployment makes it impractical. Hell, the tech exists for people to be outfitted in heavy duty, full body armor.
-Siege
4 years, infantry, 101st airborne. I've even got a big eagle tattooed on my chest. I understand about weight and running.
I also understand that grunts are not given a choice about what kind of hat to wear. You wear your kevelar whether you like it or not. And you wear your vest. Period. You've seen fotage from Iraq. Have you seen anyone in combat not wearing a helmet or vest?
And in an area where people are shooting at you constantly, 16 kilo's of cooled armor that bullets bounce off of isn't that bad of a thing.
Equiping your front line troops with the best means you need fewer people. The USA didn't walk all over the Iraqi's because they were more motivated. Or because they were better trained, although they were. The reason for the one-sidedness of the battles was that the US wasn't afraid to spend money on the guys in the front.
Got a sniper? Well, hell, let's just use this $7,000 TOW missle to take him out.
Fortified enemy position? $100,000 in artillery, or a $200,000 attack run by a couple of A-10's will take care of that for you.
Armor, night vision and communication are areas that the governments who can afford it will improve their front lines, to give them serious advantage over those who can't afford it. If you can see in the dark, shrug off most small arms fire and know where your buddies are at all times, and you're against a foe without those, no matter how well trained they are, and contrary to a whole lot of fiction, you will win.
I also understand that grunts are not given a choice about what kind of hat to wear. You wear your kevelar whether you like it or not. And you wear your vest. Period. You've seen fotage from Iraq. Have you seen anyone in combat not wearing a helmet or vest?
And in an area where people are shooting at you constantly, 16 kilo's of cooled armor that bullets bounce off of isn't that bad of a thing.
Equiping your front line troops with the best means you need fewer people. The USA didn't walk all over the Iraqi's because they were more motivated. Or because they were better trained, although they were. The reason for the one-sidedness of the battles was that the US wasn't afraid to spend money on the guys in the front.
Got a sniper? Well, hell, let's just use this $7,000 TOW missle to take him out.
Fortified enemy position? $100,000 in artillery, or a $200,000 attack run by a couple of A-10's will take care of that for you.
Armor, night vision and communication are areas that the governments who can afford it will improve their front lines, to give them serious advantage over those who can't afford it. If you can see in the dark, shrug off most small arms fire and know where your buddies are at all times, and you're against a foe without those, no matter how well trained they are, and contrary to a whole lot of fiction, you will win.
Having spent four years in the 101st airborne, could you imagine how rank-and-file infantry would cope with full body armor? Not Rangers, not Airborne (which are a notch above standard infantry) but standard infantry.
Helmet and vest are one thing, but walking around in the modern equivelant of plate mail is another matter entirely.
I don't dispute the idea of spending money on soldiers and gear, plus training and weaponry and so on improves the performance of the military overall and the individual soldier specifically.
-Siege
Helmet and vest are one thing, but walking around in the modern equivelant of plate mail is another matter entirely.
I don't dispute the idea of spending money on soldiers and gear, plus training and weaponry and so on improves the performance of the military overall and the individual soldier specifically.
-Siege
I usually envision the security/military grade armor as a tool of "shock troops" and corporate security; They're great against untrained (or partially trained), lightly-armed civilians/gangers/weak third world militaries, especially due to the fear factor, but they don't do much against REAL military bang-bang (machine guns and up, AV, APDS, grenades, bombs, shells and so on, not to mention vehicular weapons that a military can easily field), and the cost could be prohibitive. The avarage grunt should have a good camoflage vest and a helmet with integrated electronics (radio, thermographic/night vision, flare compensation and possibly HUD data display and smart goggles).
Gun-wise, remember that big governmental militaries don't like to change their standard-issue arms so often, and (except for special forces, ofcourse) use a limited number of models (due to logistic reasons mostly - to make stockpiling amoo and spare parts more easy). As a rule of a thumb, pick one or two weapons of each category for the standard armament of a country's grunts. Corporate armies could differ radically from this, especially the ones that manufacture arms (so Ares' units, for example, are a good way for the corp to field-test SOTA gear). And special units use whatever fits their mission.
Gun-wise, remember that big governmental militaries don't like to change their standard-issue arms so often, and (except for special forces, ofcourse) use a limited number of models (due to logistic reasons mostly - to make stockpiling amoo and spare parts more easy). As a rule of a thumb, pick one or two weapons of each category for the standard armament of a country's grunts. Corporate armies could differ radically from this, especially the ones that manufacture arms (so Ares' units, for example, are a good way for the corp to field-test SOTA gear). And special units use whatever fits their mission.
Biggest thing about sec armor and Mil armor is you have to manage the heat buildup in the armor. Otherwise, your soldier falls out as a heat casualty.
Something as simple as a forced-air ventilation system will probably work, but if you are wearing more than a breastplate & helmet for any length of time, it will be an issue.
Course, if you are footing the bill for this kind of armor, you can afford to put an "air conditioning" spell on the armor.
Something as simple as a forced-air ventilation system will probably work, but if you are wearing more than a breastplate & helmet for any length of time, it will be an issue.
Course, if you are footing the bill for this kind of armor, you can afford to put an "air conditioning" spell on the armor.
Keep in mind that the encumbrance rules in Shadowrun are SERIOUSLY hosed. The average soldier will pass out from exhaustion after carrying a rucksack for a few minutes.
'rucksack'?
Oh yeah, and Bearclaw reminded me of something. So far, we've just been discussing things for foot soldiers. We haven't even gotten into vehicles yet, and quite frankly, I don't want to, since no mundane foot solider - or even a group of them - can hope to take out a full-fledged military vehicle. IMHO, of course.
Oh yeah, and Bearclaw reminded me of something. So far, we've just been discussing things for foot soldiers. We haven't even gotten into vehicles yet, and quite frankly, I don't want to, since no mundane foot solider - or even a group of them - can hope to take out a full-fledged military vehicle. IMHO, of course.
Three words: fuel-air explosives.
~J
~J
Rucksack -- military backpack.
Are you thinking in terms of SR or IRL, 404?
-Siege
Are you thinking in terms of SR or IRL, 404?
-Siege
| QUOTE (AK404) |
| We haven't even gotten into vehicles yet, and quite frankly, I don't want to, since no mundane foot solider - or even a group of them - can hope to take out a full-fledged military vehicle. IMHO, of course. |
Weapons with Naval damage codes, or any of those magic things like elementals and nature spirits, or even a simple anti-armour weapon.
| QUOTE (AK404) |
| We haven't even gotten into vehicles yet, and quite frankly, I don't want to, since no mundane foot solider - or even a group of them - can hope to take out a full-fledged military vehicle. IMHO, of course. |
Are you talking about the situation in SR or in RL?
In SR, you're right due to the completly f***ed up damage system, but in RL, the whole situation looks completely different.
Unless we can assume that all signifigant military vehicles have wards, couldn't relatively minor spirits & elementals make it really unpleasant inside?
Mages & shammys could be the ATGM teams of the 2060s.
Mages & shammys could be the ATGM teams of the 2060s.
| QUOTE (AK404) |
| 'rucksack'? Oh yeah, and Bearclaw reminded me of something. So far, we've just been discussing things for foot soldiers. We haven't even gotten into vehicles yet, and quite frankly, I don't want to, since no mundane foot solider - or even a group of them - can hope to take out a full-fledged military vehicle. IMHO, of course. |
A missile/rocket launcher with AV missiles should do the job.
The problem is with explosive rules - in real life, enough explosives could take out a tank if detonated directly under it (as tanks are less armored in their belly). In SR, explosives (except for grenades) are useless - the C4 equivalent has a blast radious of 1 M and doesn't do so much damage, which is totally unrealistic.
-- Here's relevent Murphy's:
AT LEAST THE PAPER GOT SINGED
In Shadowrun, Third Edition (FanPro) detonating a 125 TON fuel-air explosive
(FAE) will produce a fireball almost 2 MILES in diameter ... but will only
slightly injure even those at ground zero. It may only break a pane of
glass.
Rules: 150,000 kg Rating 1 FAE bomb (from Man and Machine) will do a
whopping 2D damage in its area of effect and is trivial to stage down. But the blast radius is Rating x (kg/50) in meters.
IS THIS ALL YOU CAN BE?
In Shadowrun, Third Edition (FanPro) the aerage soldier would collapse from
exhaustion from carrying a typical load of 120 lbs in only 30 *seconds*.
Even a 70 pound rucksack will cause the average person to fall unconscious
due to fatigue in *39* seconds.
Rules: Average Strength and Body is 3. A load of 120 lbs (54
kg) is ST x18. This means the character suffers a moderage stun wound after
3 Combat Turns (9 seconds) and another box of stun every additional turn (3
seconds). Thus the character can last for 10 turns total.
A ST 4, BOD 4 character is ST x13 so he suffers a light stun after 4 turns
(12 seonds) and an additional box every turn after that. He can last 13
turns (39 seconds).
AT LEAST THE PAPER GOT SINGED
In Shadowrun, Third Edition (FanPro) detonating a 125 TON fuel-air explosive
(FAE) will produce a fireball almost 2 MILES in diameter ... but will only
slightly injure even those at ground zero. It may only break a pane of
glass.
Rules: 150,000 kg Rating 1 FAE bomb (from Man and Machine) will do a
whopping 2D damage in its area of effect and is trivial to stage down. But the blast radius is Rating x (kg/50) in meters.
IS THIS ALL YOU CAN BE?
In Shadowrun, Third Edition (FanPro) the aerage soldier would collapse from
exhaustion from carrying a typical load of 120 lbs in only 30 *seconds*.
Even a 70 pound rucksack will cause the average person to fall unconscious
due to fatigue in *39* seconds.
Rules: Average Strength and Body is 3. A load of 120 lbs (54
kg) is ST x18. This means the character suffers a moderage stun wound after
3 Combat Turns (9 seconds) and another box of stun every additional turn (3
seconds). Thus the character can last for 10 turns total.
A ST 4, BOD 4 character is ST x13 so he suffers a light stun after 4 turns
(12 seonds) and an additional box every turn after that. He can last 13
turns (39 seconds).
Maybe the encumberance rules were written with running up many flights of stairs in mind.
Either that or by people who hadn't carried much recently.
As for the FAE, it needs an overhaul but isn't as bad as you suggest. An average person will still take a Serious wound (3 dice, maximum of 3 successes), though when they should have been distributed into their component molecules you're right that it makes little sense.
~J
Either that or by people who hadn't carried much recently.
As for the FAE, it needs an overhaul but isn't as bad as you suggest. An average person will still take a Serious wound (3 dice, maximum of 3 successes), though when they should have been distributed into their component molecules you're right that it makes little sense.
~J
| QUOTE (Tzeentch) |
| Average Strength and Body is 3. |
*cough*MEDIAN*cough*
Yes, Median, however the BBB does say that 3 is the Human average also...
I think a "Ner... is in order... just not from me.
I think a "Ner... is in order... just not from me.
I submitted a bunch of Murphy's to the new artists so I really hope to see some soon.
Among others were the supersonic Rigger 3 cars (don't even need nitro!), taking several minutes for an untrained person to shoot themselves to death, super-weak characters bypassing armor automatically in melee, the Natural Immunity edge being ass-backwards, etc
If anyone has more let me know
Among others were the supersonic Rigger 3 cars (don't even need nitro!), taking several minutes for an untrained person to shoot themselves to death, super-weak characters bypassing armor automatically in melee, the Natural Immunity edge being ass-backwards, etc
If anyone has more let me know
| QUOTE |
| taking several minutes for an untrained person to shoot themselves to death |
You're allowed to automatically inflict a wound of any level on yourself, assuming you have the appropriate tools. Stated in the Aztlan sourcebook (which I don't have with me at the moment) and presumably carried over into the Blood magic section of MITS.
how on earth do you get a supersonic car, to do that you would need to get the speed to about 900-1000 MPT.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| The US is supposed to be developing a "rapid response" model of forces capable of being quickly dispatched to any region necessary. |
We allready got that.
It's called the US Marine Corps.
Of course, we also have the 82nd Airborne, which is supposed to be fully combat capable by parachuting in, and the 101's Airborne, which is supposed to be fully combat capable by flying in on tactical aircraft (C-130's, C-17's)
Being a Marine, I don't put much faith in the US Army's ability to follow through on their claims
Derek
Without getting into branch rivalries (what do you call a Marine running down a beach?), I'm simply paraphrasing the direction and style of the services.
The old Army formation is built upon divisions with the notion of fighting massive battles on the scale of WW2 with countries like China, the former USSR and so on.
The new formation was intended to be a trimmed rapid-response capable of immediate deployment.
That being said, I agree that given the current standards of the US Army it seems unlikely. Current training models are designed to produce soldiers as quickly as possible as effective as possible in the shortest amount of time possible.
-Siege
Edit: And these are the same people who decided to make the "Green Beret" standard issue gear.
The old Army formation is built upon divisions with the notion of fighting massive battles on the scale of WW2 with countries like China, the former USSR and so on.
The new formation was intended to be a trimmed rapid-response capable of immediate deployment.
That being said, I agree that given the current standards of the US Army it seems unlikely. Current training models are designed to produce soldiers as quickly as possible as effective as possible in the shortest amount of time possible.
-Siege
Edit: And these are the same people who decided to make the "Green Beret" standard issue gear.
What _do_ you call a marine running down the beach?
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