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GregPogor
I mean, in calmful situation, with no time limit, you get a free hit for every four dice you'd roll. With a fixed TN of 5+ while rolling six-siders, on average every third die is a hit.

Why the difference? You can say that's the price to pay for having not to roll, but the rules stat that you can do it only while relaxed or when you have exceptionnaly large dicepools (which I interpret as 15+), two instances in which I'd loose the lead on the characters.

Even the d20 rules, not really known for being gentle with characters, let the players take 10 in relaxed situations. That's what said players would roll one time out of 2 on a d20.

So, why?
Shadow_Prophet
I'm not sure where the rub is here.

It gives you a simple mechanic to speed things up and is reasonable. Stattisticaly 1 time in 3 you will roll a 5 or a 6. However as we all know from rolling dice, this doesn't allways happen. By taking the slight penalty of spending that extra die you guarentee a success. And I wouldn't say 15+ is the interpretation I'd use. I'd use it probably on as little as 10 or 12 dice for most circumstances.

Secondly its mainly used for things where you can easily do. Ie. a mechanic changing the oil on his car. He shouldn't have to roll for something like that, he's got a decent dice pool, he succeeds. A programer programing a devent, but not complicated program can buy hits and just not worry about completely screwing it up, or he could try to rush it and hope he doesn't muck up the thing by rolling the dice, which for all he knows could come up 75% 1's.

Its for that trained sniper up on the building there thats all aimed in and ready to hit her target who's completely unawares. Why chance the miss when you can burn the dice and get 2 auto success and with the called shot bypass their armor and drop them where they stand.

Its the sacrifice you make to ensure you don't botch or get a bad roll.
Egon
I think the auto success rules are about right. There has to be some reason to roll the dice. If it were based on statistical average I know lots of players would never take the dice out of the bag. Hell my mage is already making charts for him self to know what force for each drain code he can use and not have to take drain.
Mr. Unpronounceable
You have a 50% chance of getting a success on 3 dice.

You have a 100% chance of getting a success for 4 dice.


Not harsh at all, unless you need luck on your side...in which case, why are you buying successes?
FrankTrollman
Actually, you have a:

33% of getting at least one success on 1 die.
56% of geing at least one success on 2 dice.
78% of getting at least one success on 3 dice.
100% of getting a success on 4 dice.

I don't see the problem.

-Frank
Azralon
It's true that 3 dice, on average, will get you a success. However, spending that extra 4th die is probably a fair trade for negating the possibility of a glitch.
mintcar
Unless Im mistaken, you also negate the risk of a glitch when you buy successes. I would say that calling 4 dice harsh is pretty far from the mark...

<edit> ... and Im not alone it seems wink.gif

On another note: Maybe its time we learn to use the term "hit"?
Azralon
I dare say that the whole "success = hit" switchover bugs me.

I mean, I'm not always hitting people. But I usually try to succeed.

Oh, and 4 dice does not equal 100% chance of a hit. Not unless you're throwing dice with only 5's and 6's. smile.gif
Darksong
QUOTE (Azralon)
I dare say that the whole "success = hit" switchover bugs me.

still, saying "4 hits" rolls off the tongue much better than "4 successes"
Nikoli
and when you trade 4 dice for one hit, it is a 100% garuntee you won't get a glitch.
Egon
hit or success. Tap or "turn card 45% to show..." Got to love the WoTC copyrights. So long as we know what we are talking about does it matter. I think the move to "hits" is just a text msg culture thing. Its short and easy.
Azralon
I'm gonna get a whole mess of blank d6's and paint two happy faces and one sad face on them. Then I can just say "I got 5 happies" or "I got a critical sad."

Azralon rolls Agility (5) + Firearms (4): frown.gif frown.gif indifferent.gif indifferent.gif indifferent.gif indifferent.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

nyahnyah.gif
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Azralon)
Oh, and 4 dice does not equal 100% chance of a hit. Not unless you're throwing dice with only 5's and 6's. smile.gif

Er...yes, actually, it does - when you purchase a 'hit' for 4 dice out of your pool.
That's what the whole 'buying hits' thing is about.

Rolling 4 dice, OTOH...
Azralon
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Sep 29 2005, 04:43 PM)
Rolling 4 dice, OTOH...

.... Is what I meant, yup. I should have been more clear.
blakkie
I have some blank dice on order already. You need a little more detail than just happy, neutral, sad though. There are really happy and happy (6's and 5's, really happy is for when you use Edge and 6's explode), neutral (4's and 3's), little bit sad (2's, count towards Glitch when you are trying to make a Rush Job on an Extended Test), and sad (1's).

I hadn't planned on using happy/sad though. I was going to use large green circle for 5's, large green circle circumscribed by a larger black box for 6's (i couldn't get black burst lines to look good), a small red dot for 2's, and a filled medium red circle for 1's. I tryed this with wet erase markers and three blank white 19mm (i think) dice. The 2's really seem to blend in normally, and the green seem to make an easy count and the red seems to stand out well, but separately from the green.

But now that you mention it, before do the final drawing in permanent marker i might try with the happy green/sad red faces for 6's, 5's, and 1's (still red dot for 2's).
Egon
QUOTE (Azralon @ Sep 29 2005, 03:31 PM)
I'm gonna get a whole mess of blank d6's and paint two happy faces and one sad face on them.  Then I can just say "I got 5 happies" or "I got a critical sad."


the tn doesn't change any more the could just make shadowrun dice wiht 4 nyahnyah.gif side and 2 biggrin.gif sides.
Azralon
QUOTE (blakkie)
I have some blank dice on order already. You need a little more detail than just happy, neutral, sad though. There are really happy and happy (6's and 5's, really happy is for when you use Edge and 6's explode), neutral (4's and 3's), little bit sad (2's, count towards Glitch when you are trying to make a Rush Job on an Extended Test), and sad (1's).

I hadn't planned on using happy/sad though. I was going to use large green circle for 5's, large green circle circumscribed by a larger black box for 6's (i couldn't get black burst lines to look good), a small red dot for 2's, and a filled medium red circle for 1's. I tryed this with wet erase markers and three blank white 19mm (i think) dice. The 2's really seem to blend in normally, and the green seem to make an easy count and the red seems to stand out well, but separately from the green.

But now that you mention it, before do the final drawing in permanent marker i might try with the happy green/sad red faces for 6's, 5's, and 1's (still red dot for 2's).

With that many quanta to keep track of, maybe we should switch to a more flexible and linear numerical system. Say, one through six?
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon @ Sep 29 2005, 03:07 PM)
With that many quanta to keep track of, maybe we should switch to a more flexible and linear numerical system.  Say, one through six?

nyahnyah.gif The point is for visual sorting of larger number of dice. Just testing with the 3 dice the 2's melt really well until you look for them, and the hits really stand out as do the Gitches. But the real test will be with a dozen or more dice.

P.S. I believe someone else here was going to try as well and has some blanks on order.
Veggiesama
I've color-coded my dice for easy visual grouping too, but I'm not using blank dice. I went to Amazon and bought a pack of fourty-eight d6's ($7! there's a box of 200 for $20, too), plus a pack of green and red circular label stickers.

They seem pretty good so far, and it seems like the stickers won't come off easily (even if they do, I got about 700 more so it's no big deal). Red got plopped on 1's, green on 5's and 6's. In addition, I drew a little "E" for Edge on the 6's. I figure the Rush Job Extended Test is so vague it'd never end up being used, and if it was, there's still a visible 2 on the dice just in case.
Kagetenshi
SR4 dice:

dead.gif frown.gif indifferent.gif (x2) smile.gif biggrin.gif

or

dead.gif frown.gif indifferent.gif (x2) cool.gif cyber.gif

~J
Azralon
QUOTE (blakkie)
nyahnyah.gif The point is for visual sorting of larger number of dice.

smile.gif Don't worry, I completely agree that color and/or iconic sorting is a lot easier on the eyes. Well, the left brain, anyway.

Elldren
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 29 2005, 06:30 PM)
nyahnyah.gif The point is for visual sorting of larger number of dice.

smile.gif Don't worry, I completely agree that color and/or iconic sorting is a lot easier on the eyes. Well, the left brain, anyway.

Unless you're colorblind, in which case color coding works horribly. We have a red-green colorblind player in our group, so switching to "red=bad, green=good" would likely lead to further confusion unless they were otherwise visually distinguished.
mintcar
Im already finnished making my dice.

I now have a hundred dice with two green dots, one with black stroke or edge wink.gif (thanks blakkie), and one big red cross. Very easy to use. I didnt bother with the 2, that just destroys the beuty of it.

I used permanent markers on blank dice, but they smudged when you had your fingers all over them, permanent or no smile.gif . To prevent that I sprayed them with an acrylic varnish. Works just great!
snowRaven
I'm thinking of getting a whole batch of regular white dice, mark the sixes with a green burst, the fives with a green 'target', the ones with a red design of some sort, and the twos with a red edge around the dots.
Nikoli
I just keep a tone of pip based 6's around. the layout of the pips is enough for me to viaually sort, when I'm not using an app for the rolling that is.
blakkie
QUOTE (mintcar @ Sep 30 2005, 05:08 AM)
Im already finnished making my dice.

I now have a hundred dice with two green dots, one with black stroke or edge wink.gif (thanks blakkie), and one big red cross. Very easy to use. I didnt bother with the 2, that just destroys the beuty of it.

I used permanent markers on blank dice, but they smudged when you had your fingers all over them, permanent or no smile.gif . To prevent that I sprayed them with an acrylic varnish. Works just great!

Nice, and thanks for the tip on the coating. I ordered the day after you did, still waiting on it to come in. frown.gif

P.S. About the color blindness thing, ya. That's partially why i was going with different shapes too so that if it ever came up (we don't have anyone red-green blind in our group) they could muddle through even though they wouldn't see the same benefits. Of course if it was very likely going to be an issue for you you could go with red and blue, i just don't happen to have those colors.
Azralon
QUOTE (Elldren @ Sep 30 2005, 12:32 AM)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Sep 29 2005, 08:40 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 29 2005, 06:30 PM)
nyahnyah.gif The point is for visual sorting of larger number of dice.

smile.gif Don't worry, I completely agree that color and/or iconic sorting is a lot easier on the eyes. Well, the left brain, anyway.

Unless you're colorblind, in which case color coding works horribly. We have a red-green colorblind player in our group, so switching to "red=bad, green=good" would likely lead to further confusion unless they were otherwise visually distinguished.

Well, sure, hence my inclusion of the word "iconic."

In all honesty, I'm thinking I'll stick with classic pip-based d6's. They're readily available and require no explanation to suspicious/confusable GMs.

I might color in the pips, but that's as far as I'll go.
blakkie
Buy the GM hard liquor and feed him a few shots before you pull the dice out. No problems. wink.gif
Azralon
Well sure, that's SOP in any game!
blakkie
Of course if he is a beligerant drunk you could alternatively have enough dice to offer to let him use some of them if he wanted. wink.gif
JesterX
I have made a small program that calculate the odds for several scenarios, here are my results:

5 dices pool, without purchasing any hits:

Critical Glitch: 1,363169%
Glitch: 2,186214%
0 Hits: 11,80556%
1 Hit: 31,25%
2 Hits: 32,40741%
3 Hits: 16,46091%
4 Hits: 4,115226%
5 Hits: 0,4115226%

5 dices pool, purchasing 1 hit:

Critical Glitch: 0%
Glitch: 0%
0 Hits: 0%
1 Hit: 100%
2 Hits: 0%
3 Hits: 0%
4 Hits: 0%
5 Hits: 0%

Now with 9 dices without purchasing any hits:

Critical Glitch: 0,1272712%
Glitch: 0,767735%
0 Hits: 2,473958%
1 Hit: 11,38599%
2 Hits: 23,10957%
3 Hits: 27,18621%
4 Hits: 20,46468%
5 Hits: 10,24234%
6 Hits: 3,414114%
7 Hits: 0,7315958%
8 Hits: 0,09144948%
9 Hits: 0,005080526%

And then, with 9 dices, purchasing 2 hits:

Critical Glitch: 0%
Glitch: 0%
0 Hits: 0%
1 Hit: 0%
2 Hits: 100%
3 Hits: 0%
4 Hits: 0%
5 Hits: 0%
6 Hits: 0%
7 Hits: 0%
8 Hits: 0%
9 Hits: 0%

Make your own conclusions...
Rotbart van Dainig
You either purchase hits or roll - no mixing.
JesterX
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
You either purchase hits or roll - no mixing.

Oh! You're right! My mistake... I'll adjust that.
Azralon
Since you can't mix, that means that your remainder dice (which will be 1, 2, or 3) are wasted. That ups the cost per purchased hit.
mintcar
You should propably change the numbers so they represent the chance of getting 1 or more hits, 2 or more hits and so on, JesterX. Otherwise it gives no fair view of the tradeoff.
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