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Feshy
This is long, and full of tables and lists. I like tables and lists. If you don't, well, don't read this!

It has come to my attention that many people think the current ammunition rules are, well, broken. So, I started this thread as a place to gather the various house rules you might use, and discuss the balance of each idea. To do this, I'll use some standard assumptions.

1) For purposes of Damage Value, 1 Armor Penetration = .33 DV. This is statistically correct, as 1 in 3 armor dice will reduce the damage, on average -- assuming the target has enough armor that the AP even applies. Add that value to the DV modifier, and you have effective DV, or EDV.

2) For purposes of Armor Penetration, 1 DV = 1 AP. Increasing the damage by one, or decreasing the armor by one, will both have the same effect when determining wether the damage is lethal or stun. So, adding DV to AP will give the effective AP, or EAP. I've written EAP as positive to represent a decrease in armor -- this is just so that all "positive" changes are good, and all "negative" changes are bad -- to make it easier to compare side by side with DV.

3) As some ammunition types give variable increases or decreases with armor (and more SHOULD), I've defined three classifications of armor, which should give us a rough estimate of ammunition performance over a range of values. The first "armor value" is zero, representing an unarmed target. The second armor value is 6/4, representing a character who is at least moderately armored. That's a long coat or vest, and is the armor a character is likely to be wearing on "casual" encounters, and is representative of "light security" forces. Lastly, a "heavily armored" character is assumed to be 10/8 in armor -- this is either a full cammo armor suit with helmet or some orthoskin, or a security suit, or the like. This is the heavy security forces or very combat-oriented character's armor, though not an extremely high value. If you play very high-powered games, or your characters walk around very heavily armored, these numbers might not apply as well to your game setting. When listing the effective values of the ammunitions, if the results vary on armor types, use these values and sperate them with slashes, from lowest to highest.

4) It is worth noting that ammunition resisted by impact armor is almost universally .66 EDV better and 2 EAP than that resisted by ballistic armor, except in cases where shields are involved. This is because almost all armors listed have impact values 2 below the ballistic values. The stats will not record this however.

5) I am assuming AP modifiers apply even if the armor value of the target is zero. Of course, you can't have negative armor, but you can "improve" zero armor to some positive number. If this isn't the case, trolls and orthoskin characters have a huge advantage.

With those four points in mind, here are the stats for the ammunition, as listed in the book:

CODE


Armor: None/Medium/Heavy

Type                EDV          EAP   Armor   Avail   Cost
Regular         0  /0  /0     0 /0 /0    B       2R      20
APDS            0  /1.3/1.3   0 /4 /4    B       16F    100
Explosive       1  /1.3/1.3   0 /2 /2    B       8F      50
EX Explosive    2  /2.7/2.7   0 /4 /4    B       12F    100
Flechette       1.3/1.3/1.3   0 /0 /0    I       2R     100
Gel             1.3/1.3/1.3   0 /0 /0    I       4R      30
Stick-n-Shock   *  /0.7/1.3   0 /2 /4    I       5R      80
* Add to these values the value of (6 - origional DV value)


Some things to note about the stock ammunition:
1) Flechette ammunition is no better or worse against armored targets than unarmored ones. It is, in fact, better than normal ammunition in most regards, doubly so given that it is resisted with impact armor. In fact, if assumption 4 from above holds, it is as good or better than any other ammunition (excepting the all-powerful EX), even against armored targets.
2) All characters should stock up on EX Explosive at Chargen -- it's no more expensive than Flechette, and outperforms every other ammo type at every single level.
3) The only possible exception is holdout pistols, where Stick-n-Shock has equivalent performance, especially since it is impact resisted.
4) There is pretty much no reason to buy APDS. Ever. (Unless you are paranoid about glitches)
5) Gel ammo is great against all armor types too. It's also very cheap, hits the shorter damage track, and, if assumption 4 holds, can hold its own with all ammunitions except EX.

In short, as written the ammo is: Buy all the EX your GM will let you have. If you can't get EX, the ammo doesn't matter (so long as it isn't regular), all ammos are about the same for all situations.

There is a definite lack of flavor here, as written.

Here are my house rules (in progress) that attempt to address this:
1) Explosive and EX Explosive have no AP modifier.
2) Gel and Flechette have their AP changed to +Impact
3) Gel's DV is changed to +1
4) Stick-n-Shock has a DV of original DV(S), with a max value of 6(S). This means you still get the electrical effects, without making holdout pistols too powerful.
5) APDS availability has been reduced to allow it at chargen.

This gives the following table:
CODE

Type                EDV          EAP   Armor   Avail   Cost
Regular         0  /0  /0     0 /0 /0    B       2R      20
APDS            0  /1.3/1.3   0 /4 /4    B       12F    100
Explosive       1  /1  /1     0 /1 /1    B       8F      50
EX Explosive    2  /2  /2     0 /2 /2    B       12F    100
Flechette       2  /.7 /0     0 /-4/-8   I       2R     100
Gel             1  /-.3/-2    0 /-4/-8   I       4R      30
Stick-n-Shock   0  /0.7/1.3   0 /2 /4    I       5R      80


With this system, I believe I've re-added some of the "flavor" of various ammo types.
1) EX is now no longer the end-all and be-all of ammo. It does as much or more damage than any other, but is not as good at penetrating armor as APDS (or, at the high end, Stick-n-Shock).
2) Flechette can keep up with EX at no armor. It will still do good damage at higher armor values, but is much less likely to kill (do physical damage to) the target. Thus, it has drawbacks (less damage at higher armor) and advantages (more available, less prone to cook you on a glitch)
3) APDS will do more damage against armored targets than normal explosive rounds, but less damage against them than EX explosive. However, it is much more likely to do physical damage than either of those rounds. And, it is now available at chargen. Characters can now choose between damage, and killing power -- without getting both for the same price and lower availability (as in the published ammo)
4) Gel is now good ONLY for firing at lightly armored civilians. To subdue anyone in armor, you would be much better served by the more expensive stick-n-shock.
5) Stick-n-Shock is good ONLY for subduing heavily armored targets, and getting the electrical damage benefits. To simply subdue lightly armored targets, you are better off with the cheaper Gel rounds.
6) Overall, this ammo system is less deadly than the origional. In order to really tear through armor, APDS is needed. But then, Shadowrun is pretty deadly anyway.


So, discuss my ongoing house-rule effort, or list your own. Also, let me know if this system is way to cumbersome to evaluate ammunition.
Serbitar
too late

House Rules

You might check the section about ammunition and the section about physical damage reduced to stun being halved after damage resistance.

In your system, StickNShock is still way overpowered. Stun damage against halve impact is always better than physical damage against full balistic. Even stun damage against the same armor values would be better than physical, because when you have more damage boxes they are physical. AND you get this extra confusion damage from electricity attacks (see electrical damage in the rulebook).
mintcar
@Serbitar: Donīt you think itīs a bit presumptuous to say itīs "too late" to discuss house rules, just because you made yours already?

@Feshy: Good analysis. I donīt mind stun being more effective than physical myself, though gel rounds are clearly too effective against armor. I may just settle for a +4 armor value instead of +2, because that seems to accomplish what it says it should in the discription. Same for flechette. I may add some insulation as a standard feature to most armor (expensive models) to protect from electrical attacks. The rules for electrical damage are good enough. Though I think good armor should be able to provide some protection from electrical damage, even when itīs not intentional.

Taking away the AP bonus of explosive rounds seems like a good idea.

Iīve already planned on providing an additional -1 AP to all rifle type weapons (except shotgun), so these changes will help ballance that out.
Serbitar
they "too late" was because both our suggestions are almost exactly the same.
mintcar
Oh. I see smile.gif

I thought your post seemed a bit hostile because of the "too late", without a smily, followed by critique. If you think about it thereīs really nothing in there indicating a friendly attitude. Sorry for misreading you, dude.
Serbitar
No problem. I dont use smileys.
mintcar
Fair enough. I can see why some would prefer not to. I like them because they help fill the gap that is created when using written language in speach-like messages. We tend to write what we would say in these circumstances, leaving out explanations of what would have been evident in expressions and tone of voice.
Feshy
QUOTE
too late


Interesting that we came up with such similar numbers. The main differences between our two suggestions is that your physical damage is a bit deadlier (on explosive rounds), and your stun damage is the same or less.

I think the +1 ap you left on the two explosive rounds is mostly a style difference; I'd like to see less people killed by low power ammunition (Such as pistols). (Then fewer characters are lost, and villains can rise again) The increase in your APDS is necessary to balance the explosive ammo AP modifier you left, I think. Even in my rules, a heavy pistol has a very good chance of breaching armor; increasing this any more will just ensure more dead characters.

So, overall, I like your house rules too, I just prefer more stun and less physical damage.

QUOTE
In your system, StickNShock is still way overpowered


I'm going to have to disagree on this, for the simple reason that ANY armor can arbitrarily have up to 6 points of electrical resistance added (and this additional armor doesn't even affect encumberance). If the runners are fond of Stick-N-Shock rounds, and aren't easily thwarted by, say, their inability to pass barriers (I don't imagine rounds designed for close to zero kinetic transfer penetrating even moderately hardened surfaces), then adding a few points of electrical resistance to security guard armor quickly balances things again. The same applies for the runners armor.

Here, because I see things better in table form, here is Stick-n-Shock at the base I set before, and what it would be with an extra six points of electrical resistance added:

CODE

Stick-n-Shock   0  /0.7/1.3     0 /2 /4    I       5R      80  
Stick-n-Shock   -2 /-1.3/-0.7   -6/-4/-2  I       5R      80  (6 points of electrical resistance applied)


As you can see, for 1,200 yen, Stick-n-Shock is instantly made worse than even regular ammunition (excepting the very useful electrical effects -- you have to get SOMETHING for the 4x increase in price of the ammo)

But, again, I think the differences in our house rules is mostly a style difference. Your house rules lead to a more deadly shadowrun universe, mine to a slightly less (by encouraging stun use). Also, since runners tend to go gonzo over high powered explosive rounds regardless of stats, with my ammo security might have a slight advantage -- as it is usually less costly to stun an opponent than kill one, corps are likely to go that route.

The one house rule of yours I would like to comment on that is related is the halving of damage when physical damage is reduced to stun by armor. To me this seems just too powerful an effect of armor, and once again moves SR4 in the direction that light weapons are useless. I rather like that there isn't THAT much difference between light pistols and heavy pistols, for instance. Effectivley halving the damage of light pistols, but not (in most cases) heavy pistols, puts things a bit closer to SR3, where only crazy people ever used light pistols. Also, not ALL physical damage tracts are longer than the stun tracks. Maybe I just favor casters a bit over hulking trolls, but in my opinion, the longer physical tracks are just there to help people survive some of the sudden deadly effects in the 4th edition rules... grenades come immediately to mind. All grenades now have effectively increased their damage to what would have been "deadly" damage in SR3, and most armor won't stop it.

Serbitar
Look again:

Explosive has +1DV/+1AP not -1AP. So it doesn't pierce armor better than regular ammo. The +1DV and +1AP cancel.

A Troll with lots of armor (Dermal Plating 2 + Natural plating + Armor jacket = 11) NEEDS my pyhsical to stun rule. He almost never takes physical damage und would never ever experience the usefullness of his longer physical track. Thats just not acceptable.

Btw: The standard Heavy Pistol hit does stun damage, too against the standard Armor Jacket everybody carries: 2 nettohits +5DV =7 8 -1 = 7 --> stun. You need 3 nettohits to do physical, and thats not standard at all.


To StickNShock: I don't balance my world to runner actions. Guards just don't pop up with heavy electricity amror just because the runners use a lot of StickNShock. Either they have heavy electricity armor regardless of what the runners do, or they dont. The whole world doesn't change because some 5 runners use a certain type of ammo more often.

Thoug, I will give guards heavy electricity armor, because tasers are just a too silent and effective way to get rid of guards, and most security services know that.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Feshy)
There is pretty much no reason to buy APDS.  Ever. (Unless you are paranoid about glitches)

And unless you never want to shoot through any barrierer that is not in close proximity to the target and not thicker than a few centimeters.
Feshy
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Look again:

Explosive has +1DV/+1AP not -1AP. So it doesn't pierce armor better than regular ammo. The +1DV and +1AP cancel.

A Troll with lots of armor (Dermal Plating 2 + Natural plating + Armor jacket = 11) NEEDS my pyhsical to stun rule. He almost never takes physical damage und would never ever experience the usefullness of his longer physical track. Thats just not acceptable.

Btw: The standard Heavy Pistol hit does stun damage, too against the standard Armor Jacket everybody carries: 2 nettohits +5DV =7 8 -1 = 7 --> stun. You need 3 nettohits to do physical, and thats not standard at all.


To StickNShock: I don't balance my world to runner actions. Guards just don't pop up with heavy electricity amror just because the runners use a lot of StickNShock. Either they have heavy electricity armor regardless of what the runners do, or they dont. The whole world doesn't change because some 5 runners use a certain type of ammo more often.

Thoug, I will give guards heavy electricity armor, because tasers are just a too silent and effective way to get rid of guards, and most security services know that.

Ah, I see, +1ap, not -1ap. You're right, I like that better.

As for the armored jacket, my thoughts on heavy pistols not doing stun where based on what I thought your explosive ammo was (and based on what the SR4 explosive ammo values are) -- that is, I assume runners won't be using regular ammo much. at 6 DV and -2 AP (heavy pistol with explosive) if you hit at all (1 net hit), you bypass the armored jacket.

I guess I don't see the troll situation as "unacceptable" -- after all, that troll is still going to be rolling a truckload of dice to resist damage. Thus, his longer damage track won't be used, but he'll still be taking less damage on the shorter track than others.

As for not balancing the world against runner actions... well, it seems to me that if security forces know about tasers, they'd know about stick-n-shock. Basically, I figure Stick-n-Shock can be more powerful simply BECAUSE there is an easily applied counter to it. It makes it unreliable. I wasn't suggesting that all security forces everywhere suddenly get upgrades because of five runners (though, if the ammo is that much better, seems likely more than those five runners will be using it). But thrown in at opportune times, it forces the runners to rethink their strategy. And it makes stick-n-shock unreliable -- because at any point they could run into the well-insulated security force. And even recognizing that they are fighting a group with electrical insulation will be difficult, as it doesn't change the appearance of armor any. All the team will know is that the sec guards aren't dropping like they used to.

QUOTE
And unless you never want to shoot through any barrierer that is not in close proximity to the target and not thicker than a few centimeters.


Actually, APDS is still worse than EX then. According to the shooting through barriers section, a barrier pretty much just adds its armor rating to the targets. As you can see from my tables, APDS has less effective damage, and identical effective armor penetration, to EX explosive (which, again, is the same price and easier to find) against even these higher armor values. Destroying barriers is similarly unaffected.

Unless I misunderstand the situation you are proposing?
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