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calypso
QUOTE ("Pg. 221")
To hack on the fly, you spend a Complex Action and make a Hacking + Exploit (Firewall, 1 Initiative Pass) Extended Test. This will get you personal account access; if you want security level access, increase the threshold by +3, or +6 for admin access. If you beat the threshold, you have bypassed the security and now have access to the node.

Each time you make a test to hack in, however, the target node also gets to make a free Analyze + Firewall (Stealth) Extended Test. If the node detects you—whether you hack in or not—an alert is triggered


Now, about this free Analyze + Firewall test. First of all, if it's an Extended Test, as it says, what is the interval?

Second, if this is an Extended Test, that means there is NO WAY that a hacker can Hack on the Fly without being detected in no time at all.

The only other possibilities I can think of are:

a) It's not an Extended Test. It's a Success Test and the node has to get successes >= your Stealth program rating. That means you'll rarely get detected while Hacking on the Fly.

b) It's a "sort of" Extended Test. Each time you make a Hacking + Exploit roll, it gets to make an Analyze + Firewall roll. Both of your successes accumulate, and either the hacker beats the nodes Firewall rating first, or the node beats the hackers Stealth rating first.

I'm thinking B.

Calypso

Veggiesama
The interval is "1 Initiative Pass". I'm guessing each time you roll it, the target node gets to roll and see if it can detect you.

The probing method lets the target node only get one roll against you when you finally succeed, I believe. This one lets the node have multiple tries against you. The better you roll, the less tries it gets, it looks like.
NightRain
QUOTE (calypso)
The only other possibilities I can think of are:

a) It's not an Extended Test. It's a Success Test and the node has to get successes >= your Stealth program rating. That means you'll rarely get detected while Hacking on the Fly.

b) It's a "sort of" Extended Test. Each time you make a Hacking + Exploit roll, it gets to make an Analyze + Firewall roll. Both of your successes accumulate, and either the hacker beats the nodes Firewall rating first, or the node beats the hackers Stealth rating first.

I'm thinking B.

Calypso

b) is right, though it's not an either/or. The node can get more successes and set of an alarm, but that doesn't stop the hacker still hacking his way in. It just means he was noticed doing it.

Also, bear in mind that unless the person is running an analyze program at the time, you'll generally be able to hack in without triggering any alarms.
Drop Bear Prime
I read it as b), only it really is an Extended Test (interval of 1 Int Pass as was pointed out). Well actually two Extended Tests, one for the hacker an one for the system. Note that this makes a system with a high Analyze (6) and Firewall (6) a tough nut to crack without being detected. Especially tough if you want something more than simple user access privilages. Even with Hacking (6), Stealth(6), and Exploit (6) you will fail more often than not to get in undetected just trying to get basic user access.

EDIT:

QUOTE
Also, bear in mind that unless the person is running an analyze program at the time, you'll generally be able to hack in without triggering any alarms.


? Isn't it the Firewall that is running the Analyze? That's why it is Firewall+Analyze. So you don't need a user or even an agent/sprite to be running the Analyze.
calypso
The distinction I'm making is that the node isn't actually making an Extended Test, because:

It only gets to roll when the hacker also rolls. So say that Howard the Hacker is trying to break into Nancy the Node. He rolls Hacking + Exploit on pass 1. This allows the node to make an Analyze+Firewall roll. Howard gets 3 successes, and Nancy gets 2 successes.

Next pass, Howard does not make a roll for whatever reason (he's eating a gyro). The node also does not get to make a roll.

So it's only sort of an Extended Test for the node. The node doesn't get to control when it makes rolls.

Calypso

EDIT: btw, if you're wondering why I raised this question when I seem confident in the answer, it's because the answer occured to me as I was typing the question. But I figured, why waste all that effort. biggrin.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (calypso @ Oct 3 2005, 03:21 PM)
The distinction I'm making is that the node isn't actually making an Extended Test, because:

It only gets to roll when the hacker also rolls.  So say that Howard the Hacker is trying to break into Nancy the Node.  He rolls Hacking + Exploit on pass 1.  This allows the node to make an Analyze+Firewall roll.  Howard gets 3 successes, and Nancy gets 2 successes.

Next pass, Howard does not make a roll for whatever reason (he's eating a gyro).  The node also does not get to make a roll.

So it's only sort of an Extended Test for the node.  The node doesn't get to control when it makes rolls.

It's still clearly an Extended Test. But the Nancy doesn't get the opportunity to detect Howard when he is busy eating a gyro because Howard isn't actually where he needs to be for Nancy to notice him. So Nancy could still be rolling while Howard is snacking, and would be if Jack was trying to get into Nancy while Howard was busy satisfying his munchies, but any hits scored would be pointless towards detecting Howard as there is nothing to try detect.
Wasabi
Its an extended test in the sense your Hits accumulate towards success. Its not an opposed roll, though, as the Node is reacting with a seperate extended test of its own in response to each of YOUR attempts.

Bear in mind that Analyze has to be running on the Node and that Analyze could also be running on Agents/Hackers patrolling the Node. Each would roll to break through your sneak each of their passes, but only the node gets a chance to see you break in.

If the Firewall succeeds and sets off an Alert, the Firewall gets +4 to its rating for all Firewall tests. (Defensive included such as trying to use Crash Program on it). This means avoiding an aleret is key, and the first place to avoid it in every single situation is during the Hacking on the Fly test.

One way to set up a successful hacker is to get Hacking to 7 (Aptitude positive quality) then specialize in Exploit program (6+2 dice for specializing) then Codeslinger in Hacking on the Fly. If you go in full VR (another +2 dice) then this will give you 7+2+2+2=19 dice. 19 dice averages to 19/3=6.333 successes per pass which means the Firewall of a nasty host will, on average, get only one test against you. If you have a Stealth program of 6 this means it needs to get all 6 successes against you in one pass while you Exploit a way in, which is impossible on average.

This means a tricked out Hacker can go up against a 6+6 node on average and win and has about a 50/50 chance of getting Admin access during a two-pass break-in.

Anywho, thats my own analysis of it. Hope that helps!

EDIT: Numbers corrected to include Exploit rating. Thanks, Vector!!
Vector
Wasabi, I think you missed the rating of the Exploit program (probably 6 if you have a skill of 7) so you'd probably have 19 dice in that example or 6.33 successes on average.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Vector @ Oct 4 2005, 07:43 AM)
Wasabi, I think you missed the rating of the Exploit program (probably 6 if you have a skill of 7) so you'd probably have 19 dice in that example or 6.33 successes on average.

Corrected... thanks Vector! smile.gif

Rating 6 on a starting character requires a System 6, Response 5 commlink with a successful Reality Filter test on the target node to raise Response to 6. Still do-able.

That means Admin access with that combo takes two passes on average. WOW.
Vector
Granted, that's two passes by the best equipped and most skilled hacker in the world. cyber.gif
Wasabi
My point is mainly to calypso and there to show that its quite do-able on an upper end Hacker, even one with starting stats/skills/gear. A multifaceted Hacker would have a harder time but be able to do more things of course! smile.gif
calypso
Heehee, if you make a Hacker Adept, you can start with 25 dice on exploit tests:

6 (Skill) + 1 (Aptitude) + 2 (Exploit Specialization) + 2 (Codeslinger) + 6 (Program, assuming successful Reality Filter) + 6 (Improved Ability) + 2 (Hot Sim) = 25. If you're on your Home Ground, that's 27.

rotfl.gif

Calypso
Rotbart van Dainig
Improved Ability only to Rating 3 - Augmented Skill Cap.

If your are harsh, that kills the Specialisation and Qualities, too - resulting in 18 dice.
blakkie
Taking someone else's system as Home Ground? cyber.gif

P.S. The extra dice from Improved Ability gets capped at either 3 or perhaps 2, depending on whether or not the GM rules that Aptitude increases the natural skill limit (i think it does).
Wasabi
QUOTE (calypso)
Heehee, if you make a Hacker Adept, you can start with 25 dice on exploit tests:

6 (Skill) + 1 (Aptitude) + 2 (Exploit Specialization) + 2 (Codeslinger) + 6 (Program, assuming successful Reality Filter) + 6 (Improved Ability) + 2 (Hot Sim) = 25. If you're on your Home Ground, that's 27.

rotfl.gif

Calypso

Too funny Calypso! smile.gif

Bear in mind though, that the extra points for Codeslinger and specialization in Hacking In are wasted when you have the other bonuses. Since even with 25 dice you'll need, on average, a second pass to get in as an Admin, the extra dice are wasted. Now, it is safe to say that the other tests would be a breeze with all that to throw...

lol!
calypso
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Improved Ability only to Rating 3 - Augmented Skill Cap.

If your are harsh, that kills the Specialisation and Qualities, too - resulting in 18 dice.

Initially I would agree with you. However:

"Improved Ability
This power gives you additional dice for use with a specific
Active skill. Dice purchased for the Active skill carry
over equally to any specializations of the skill you know. You
cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating.
Improved Ability does not actually improve a skill’s rating,
it only provides additional dice for tests involving the skill.
Improved Ability must be purchased for a specific skill, not
a skill group."

The limit on it is "You cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating." If the augmented skill rating capapplies, then you can NEVER reach that limit, as that places a hard cap of 1.5 * your base skill rating, and Improved Ability specifies a 2 * your base skill rating cap.

Calypso
blakkie
Sure you can reach that limit. If you have a Skill(4) and Improved Ability(4) you still only have 8 dice, which is less than 9 dice.
Rotbart van Dainig
Known - but those rules don't even try to invalidate the Augmented Skill Cap... so they seem... a redundant leftover.

QUOTE (blakkie)
Sure you can reach that limit. If you have a Skill(4) and Improved Ability(4) you still only have 8 dice, which is less than 9 dice.

Just the limit isn't based on the maximum possible skill, but the actual...
calypso
QUOTE (blakkie)
Sure you can reach that limit. If you have a Skill(4) and Improved Ability(4) you still only have 8 dice, which is less than 9 dice.

If you only have Skill(4), then the limit is 6.
calypso
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Known - but those rules don't even try to invalidate the Augmented Skill Cap... so they seem... a redundant leftover.

Bah! Let me revel in my 25 dice. grinbig.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (calypso @ Oct 6 2005, 05:04 AM)
If you only have Skill(4), then the limit is 6.

Which is crap!

Especially if you consider all the other things that add dice to the Pools. You actually need a Skill of 4 to use a Smartlink? Skill 2 just for Reflex Recorder? 6 if you even want to consider both, and you could never get Improved Ability, or any other bonus whatsoever? Inane!

We really need Errata on just what does and doesn't qualify as 'skill augmentation'. And some clarification on the exact wording on total skill/augmentaion limitations.
blakkie
QUOTE (calypso @ Oct 5 2005, 01:04 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 5 2005, 02:03 PM)
Sure you can reach that limit. If you have a Skill(4) and Improved Ability(4) you still only have 8 dice, which is less than 9 dice.

If you only have Skill(4), then the limit is 6.

So i guess it's a limit of 3 useful levels then. So? You can actually purchase the levels up to the Skill limit, you just can't use them past Skill*0.5. *shrug*

P.S. That isn't the only place where a limit is given and will never effectively be reached. During character creation you are limited to binding Magic # of foci, and a total of foci force of 5 x Magic. But due to Avail the largest force # of foci you can buy is 3 x Magic.
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