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Veggiesama
I'm just going to throw a few ideas out there to open up discussion:

Blades vs Clubs
- "Best" big weapon, concealability not a factor: Combat Axe, which has +2P when compared to Staff.
- For easily concealable weapons, they seem to tie. If Forearm Snap Blades are included (I'm not sure where they'd fit on concealability table) and if they have the same concealability, they would trump clubs.
- For a "weak" character trying to deal lots of melee damage, hauling a Combat Axe around would still be a reasonable source. A 3 STR character would still be dealing 6P with the axe vs 6S(e) for the stun baton (granted I don't know how much more "awesome" electricity damage is off the top of my head, but I doubt it's anything special in this case).
- Only way I see Clubs coming to the forefront is in the improvised weapon department. But if you're a shadowrunner with no weapon at hand, you're pretty screwed anyway.
- Though, price seems to be cheaper for clubs. Either way, taking Exotic Weapon(Super Soakers) would be cheaper too (nuyen-wise), but I don't think they'd be as practical as Pistols.

Blades
- Combat Axe vs Katana: why would anyone take a katana? They are both two-handed blades, not easy to conceal. Axe does more damage. Axe has more reach. Axe is cheaper.
- Katana vs Monofilament Sword: They're same thing!! Mono seems cheaper and makes no explicit mention of "two-handedness" in its description.
- Sword: Assuming the Monofilament Sword is supposed to be used two-handed, this one is fairly reasonable and fills a niche. Though it doesn't get the -1 AP, it can be used one-handed.
- Knife vs Combat Knife: Why would anyone get a crappy kitchen knife when you can get one with a GPS device on it for 30n more? Not to mention the AP bonus.

Exotic Melee Weapons
- No problem so far with Pole Arms. It fills a different niche, but it seems a little underpowered vs the cheaper Combat Axe, especially with needing to take a brand new skill (+2P for axe or -1 AP for polearm).
- I'm not going to even touch the Monofilament Whip. (okay, okay... available at character gen?!)

Unarmed
- Shock Glove: Seems fine, I suppose.

As I found most of the ranged weapons seemed to be fairly in balance with other, this melee section fell well short of my expectations. Maybe you could blame it on the lack of melee weapon stats to differentiate, but I think it could have been better. Ex. monowire piercing weapons (monorapier!) that deal mediocre damage but high AP, or some brass knuckles to augment unarmed combat (drawback being they're illegal? I don't know nyahnyah.gif).

If I made a mistake or you have anything to add (or maybe just agree with me!), thanks for your comments.
Rotbart van Dainig
Out of the book, the Extendable Baton beats them all (grinbig.gif) - it's cheap,concealable, perfectly legal and offers Reach.

Remember that those stats are there for reference, too.
hyzmarca
The monofiliment whip is proably the best weapon available, untill you glitch. When that happens your next action will be "I pick up my (body part of GM's choice) and run away".
Squinky
The combat axe is the shit, but I just can't picture my shadowrunner swinging, and carrying around a god damned axe! In my mind thats barabarion shit. The cool-ass runner in my mind uses a katana.....
Feshy
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The monofiliment whip is proably the best weapon aailable, untill you glitch. When that happens your next action will be "I pick up my (body part of GM's choice) and run away".

Exactly. Glitches are a lot more common in SR4. With the whip, you do tons of deadly, deadly damage... but after the first few times the runner severs the catwalk they are on, or slices through a water main overhead, etc. they might regret the purchase. For a character that specializes in whips, and therefore runs relatively slim chance of critical failure, you might not loose limbs often, but there are still hazards.

Still, it's a frightening weapon, I'll agree.
WhiteRabbit
QUOTE (Veggiesama)
granted I don't know how much more "awesome" electricity damage is off the top of my head, but I doubt it's anything special in this case

Actually, electricity damage is quite nice. You have to make a separate resistance test (Bod + Wil (4), impact armor halved IIRC) to avoid being KO'd for a while even if you soak all of the normal damage.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ Oct 3 2005, 03:47 PM)
A 3 STR character would still be dealing 6P with the axe vs 6S(e) for the stun baton (granted I don't know how much more "awesome" electricity damage is off the top of my head, but I doubt it's anything special in this case).

The stun baton is the way to go. Electrical damage for one thing, and almost as good it does Stun damage. Stun damage is way more valuable than Physical in SR4, because no one has anything like the bonuses to Body that Trolls and Orks get applied to Willpower. In general you can expect to need fewer boxes of Stun to fill someone's track than Physical.

Maximum unaugmented stun damage track: 12
Maximum unaugmented physical damage track: 13

Maximum augmented stun damage track: 13
Maximum augmented physical damage track: 16 22

Average stun damage track across all metahumans: 10
Average physical damage track across all metahumans: 11
Average Physical track for a single Troll/Ork: 12

~J
Feshy
QUOTE
Maximum augmented physical damage track: 16


Not entirely true. I haven't worked out what the maximum is, but a character with all six replacement "limbs" (including torso and head) gets 6 additional damage boxes. This can lead to some very high numbers. One character I ported from SR3 is my hacker, "Tin Man" (full cyber replacement limbs, torso, and head. If you work late, make sure the fire alarms are on and no corp considers you "evidence" that is easily disposed of in a fire, lest you have to go shopping for a new body too)-- and he's got 18 boxes IIRC.

Of course, that just makes your point even stronger, but I thought I'd throw that out there.
Kagetenshi
Interesting. I was working purely off the racial modification tables, so 'ware that adds boxes beyond what Body gets you (like the aforementioned cyberlimbs) isn't included in my table.

~J
mfb
i liked the hatchet that Keithy carried in Idoru. folded, it was palm-sized; opened it into a full-sized tomahawk by squeezing the ends together, like a pair of folding pliers. with nanoforging, something like that should be easily possible in SR. you could even make something similar for a battleaxe, though the closed size would obviously have to be larger.
Wasabi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The monofiliment whip is proably the best weapon available, untill you glitch. When that happens your next action will be "I pick up my (body part of GM's choice) and run away".

I like to call it a "Edge denial weapon" as the wielder with a survival instinct will want to save some Edge points for fixing mess-ups...
mfb
like suppressive fire, only you use it in melee, and on yourself!
Veggiesama
Okay, so I retract the comment about a weak character using a combat axe over a stun baton, good points raised.

So best options for weak STR characters (probably in this order too):
1. Monofilament Whip (concealability, phys damage, everything)
2. Stun Baton (electricity) / Shock Gloves (electricity)
3. Combat Axe (pure phys damage)

So Monofilament wtfpwns everything, except for that small potential dismemberment problem.
Stun Baton and Shock Gloves share the same place, because they deal electricity and stun damage. The Baton does a little more damage, but the Gloves use the Unarmed Combat skill, which (IMO) is a much more versatile skill and useful skill. Also, the Gloves are more concealable than the Baton, and arguably more concealable than even the Extendable Baton.
Lastly, there's the Combat Axe for just shear physical damage, reach, and AP for a character taking Blades.

As for strong characters, they have no reason at all in taking Clubs.

1. Damage: Combat Axe if you have 9+ STR, otherwise Monofilament Whip wins out.
2. Concealability: Survival Knife takes the cake with more AP and +1 damage. Sure, the sap deals +1P, deals stun, and gives a -2 conceal, but Unarmed Fists are infinitely more concealable and deal stun. All you lose is that +1P, oh well.
3. Electricity: Might as well be its own category. Yes, Stun Baton gives 1 reach and +1P vs the Shock Gloves, but you'd save more karma by just pumping up Unarmed and taking gloves.

Anyway, my conclusions are: Blades (or exotic) for physical damage, Unarmed for stun damage and electricity. Clubs are a tad better than Unarmed, but if you had to choose between the two, Unarmed would come up much more (for instance, if you're wielding a pistol and an enemy runs by you... I believe you would roll an Unarmed attack if you wanted to Intercept, assuming you're not going pistol+club nyahnyah.gif).

Only reason I make such a huge post is this: the lack of diversity among melee weapon choices is disappointing. Here's to hoping future books expand on these.
Jaid
monofilament whips also become more appealing if you have a magician who can have a spirit use it's guard power on you (which is a really danged nice power, btw... )
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Veggiesama)
Clubs are a tad better than Unarmed, but if you had to choose between the two, Unarmed would come up much more (for instance, if you're wielding a pistol and an enemy runs by you... I believe you would roll an Unarmed attack if you wanted to Intercept, assuming you're not going pistol+club nyahnyah.gif).

If you bludgeon someone with a pistol when pistol = club. SR3 even had a nice melee hardening option that would add to the power of such an attack. The thing about clubs is that everything that is blund and not a pole arm falls into that catagory.
Veggiesama
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
If you bludgeon someone with a pistol when pistol = club. SR3 even had a nice melee hardening option that would add to the power of such an attack. The thing about clubs is that everything that is blund and not a pole arm falls into that catagory.

Yeah, that's true. But kicking would still be unarmed, and that's practically always an option.

But it's true that Clubs are good improvised weapons. However, Unarmed attacks will *never* be out-of-reach (won't have to waste Simple Actions grabbing such weapons either). *shrugs*

I guess if you want to take Blades and Unarmed Combat, taking the melee skill group wouldn't be a bad idea 'cuz you get Clubs thrown in for free.

Personally, I'm on the verge of considering whether you should just lump Blades and Clubs together into a "Melee" skill, and drop the skill group. I just think STR is one of the worst stats out there, and it's only useful at odd-numbered intervals, at that. Might as well give melee-users a little love *shrugs*.
hahnsoo
Every single point of Strength is useful if you are using the evil Subduing Combat rules.
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