I realize that this topic is also up at the SR4 section, but I think sr3 deserves it's own. So melee combat happens, and everytime we get into meleecombat with my group, some of them insist on jerking their Ares Alphas at the opponents mouth or at least blast them with their Predators. Is there any rule that opposes this, as I really think that it kinda eats the excitement. Plus I'm pretty pissed of when I hit them with a team of NPC's with all the melee and unarmed greatness, and then my players just go "nah, I'll shoot the fragging ninjas".

There's a +2 TN for firing from within a melee. Also, there's often (read: GM's call, realistically) going to be some unpleasant cover mods in effect for people firing into a melee (from outside that melee).

I also think its +2 per opponent in melee.

so three people beating on you with clubs gets quiet distracting. Of course I could just be misremembering that part.

I would also suggest that if someone has just successfully (or unsuccessfully) defended theirself from a melee attack, that they now have to "ready weapon" to use it. Further, was that Alpha on a sling, or did they drop it to defend? Also, you could decide that one of the bad-guys is using their action to try to control the weapon while the others throw fists. Just some ideas....

If your runners aren't a bunch of rules lawyers, you can probably thwart this with some cinematic descriptions of how the action plays out. "The big troll topples from your throat strike and you barely dodge before he collapses in a heap of unconcious flesh. Somewhere under that heap is your weapon."

Use bad guys that for some reason have to be taken alive.

And, if that's what they like you may just want to allow them to do it once in a while, so they don't get resentful.

Have you ever done a martial art? I have never tried an art that lets me aim a gun while sparing. so if Rocco is going for his predator and the "ninja" has an attack first, Rocco cannot defend. it's a free shot. Make sure you use the knock down rules.
and you would have to fire form the hip. Stick out your arm to aim and someone will break it off. Yes I speak from experience.no it wasn't my arm

but at melee range, anyone who has done CQB training knows how to go from hip holster to empty clip withough shooting off any of their own body parts, since I was the only person in my SR team that used a hip rig I don't know how prevalant it is in other games.
my first reaction in melee would be to drop the long gun (which should be easy for the opponant to control, rule of levers and all that), and pull the secondary, fire the two shots into the bad guys belly at spitting distance, and break contact, I've even done simulations of it in RL, its not hard.
now if the "ninja" goes first, I don't care if rocco goes down, I'd even have him dodge down, because that breaks contact, he pulls and fires. shooting at 3 feet requires no aiming, just pull the trigger. and yes if Im in arms length of the other guy, I'd only shoot from the hip, because it keeps my arms attached to me.

THis discussion reminds me of a leason my Kung-fu (northern Shaolin) was always repeating..

If you're in a neighborhood where someone attacking you is packing, and you aren't.... You dont belong in that neighborhood.

In other words, Don't go to a gunfight with a butterknife.

my suggestion would be to houserule reach modifiers for firearms--negative reach modifiers (in effect, giving your opponent a positive reach mod). the mod would be something like -1 for pistols and SMGs, -2 for ARs and shotguns, and -3 for heavy weapons and large rifles (sniper/AMR/whatever).

these mods would not apply if the gunman is using his firearm like a club, of course. but if they're shooting, or holding their weapons in preparation for shooting, they take the penalty. that way, bringing a gun to a knife fight becomes the suck that it ought to be.

If you are close enough to grapple with someone then you don't need to aim your gun, you just have to press the barrel into his gut and pull the trigger. You aren't going to miss.

<Edit: misunderstanding>

Then there's also the question of what you consider an "advantage". IIRC about 20 feet is considered the range at which someone with a knife poses a very significant threat of serious injury or death to someone with a gun in real life, but that doesn't mean that they won't suffer much the same fate.

~J

Incidentally, the 20-feet rule should be rechristened the 30-feet rule in Shadowrun, given the average movement rate for pedestrians in the game.

Sounds like there're major differences in visualization of a shadowrun "melee," same as different directors and choreographers can make fights in a movie look very different. I suggest you might just wanna have a pre-game talk with your characters about the style of fight scene you're creating together. You can see by the discussion here that many people have a different notion of what goes on in a fight and what can and can't be done.

As a related anecdote, there was a recent news story in my neck of the woods about a cop who (allegedly) drew his sidearm and shot a guy who was (allegedly) beating on him with a baton. (Yes, it was the cop's own baton. Talk about the drek hitting the fan! Bad news for everyone involved, I'm sure.)

But to address the original issue (and I'm embarassed that I didn't think of mentioning this earlier): Are these guys bringing their guns everywhere they go? Maybe you're going easy on them, allowing them to bring assault rifles to work and handguns whenever they go out for a beer. If the bad-guys want to attack hand to hand, maybe they'll wait for a better opportunity.

(edit: cold in here, can't type.)

indeed. though it's worth pointing out that if you're close enough to shove a gun in my gut, you're close enough for me to snap your wrist. and then your neck.

So, you'd be dead in .04 or so seconds while it might take a few days for his body to realise it's dead as he's likely been shot in the liver in that example.

indeed. though, well, if we're talking about SR, it's all the same. on the other hand, if we're talking about SR, he might not be faster on the trigger than i am on the ass-whuppin'. or even if we're talking about someone who's had the right type of training IRL.

Whether or not you got the gun in your hand or in your pocket when the fight starts can be the deciding factor.
Here's a light version of what I mean, involving a knife instead of a gun. Thankfully, it didn't go as bad as it could have.

http://www.comegetyousome.com/fight_videos_2.htm

Watch the last fight listed (bottom right hand corner, girl with the knife.) And try to ignore the Springer-like trashiness of it all.

I hope this doesn't count as inappropriate material. My apologies to anyone offended.

Here's an idea on how to house-rule firearms in melee combat...

If you are in melee combat with an opponent, and he tries to fire a gun at contact distance, you get to roll your normal melee combat skill to defend or counter-attack.

If you are the one trying to shoot on your action, your opponent gets the same opposed roll to defend or counter-attack.

You could role-play the results of this in many ways. Your opponent tries to shoot you, but you manage to knock his arm out of the way at the last minute. Or perhaps you are able to knock his arm out of the way, and strike back at the same time. You could even have a special skill of disarming your opponent, if your GM allows it.

This rule makes using firearms in melee combat even more dangerous, as every time you try to shoot someone, they have a chance to counter-attack or disarm you.

Of course, firearms can only be used on your action. If you have a gun in your hand, and your opponent tries to hit you with a melee attack, you don't get to shoot him as a counter-attack. You could, however, use the firearm to block or parry his attack as normal.

Any thoughts?

Gunkata - martial art allow one to take manuvers for use with firearms and use firearms as melee weapons either offensivly or defensivly. Recoil modifiers do not apply in melee. At range, recoil modifiers for burst fire can be negated by withholding dice from the test.
Manuvers must be taken seperatly for each weapon type and each firing mode that you wish to use the gunkata skill with. Characters who wish to use the gunkata skill with a firearm/firing mode combination that he they don't have a manuver for suffer a +2 defaulting penality.

Additionally, full auto fire does not work with the gunkata, only single shot, semi automatic, and burst fire do.

Fully automatic fire cannot be used a melee range with the gunkata skill. Attempting to do so result in a defaulting penality of to +2 +(the number of bullets fired). At range, recoil modifiers apply without the +2 defaulting penality. Again, uncompensated recoil can be negated by withholding dice from the test.

Using Gunkata is always a complex action, even at range.

Weapon + ammo damage code is used staged up by net successes on the gunkata roll. If the opponet gets net successes he causes damage instead, just like normal melee combat. Power is reduced by balistic armor as normal unless the ammo specifies impact armor.

At range, the Gunkata skill acts like the adept power Distance Strike, except it only works if you are using a firearm.

Smart link and laser sight bonuses do not apply in melee. Attuning bonuses do. A firearm is considered to have a reach of 0 when used in this manner.

Attempts to use unarmed combat with the gunkata martial art also result in a +2 defaulting penality.

*PUKE* Not more Gunkata. Let. It. Die.

There's actually been a discussion on the SR4 portion of the forums about rules for guns in melee, here.

At least some of the people felt that being able to use your melee combat skill to oppose their ranged combat skill by knocking their weapon aside or wrestling for control of it was appropriate. I don't see any reason why that couldn't work in SR3, too. At the very least, it would encourage people with guns to back away from melee attackers (the TN modifier for being in melee and the modifier for walking away from your melee attacker are the same: +2).

I'd say no bonus for reach, tho. Keeping your enemy two meters away at the end of your polearm would actually be disadvantageous, because that makes it easier for them to shoot you.

i came up with a power, some time back, that somewhat addresses this. it allows adepts, at least, to use melee skills to counter firearms attacks. if you're allowing anybody and everybody to do that, this power would need to be rewritten or disincluded, of course.

Infighting
Cost: 1
If attacked in ranged combat by an opponent that is within 1/6 of the adept's Quickness in meters (round up), an adept with Infighting can choose to forgoe his normal dodge test in order to make an unarmed counterattack. The counterattack is made at +2 TN, and the base Damage Level of the counterattack is reduced by two levels. If the base damage level drops below L, the adept must gain two extra successes per level below L that it has dropped, in order to do any damage with the counterattack. As long as the counterattack successes are equal to or greater than the shooter's attack successes, however, the adept has successfully negated the ranged attack.

there is some problem with the disarming part of the dicussion. the average shooter, as good as they may be without training, they will quickly be bested by a martial artist, there are many manouvers that keep the unarmed person safe, and there are manouvers that can be learned to avoid becoming disarmed. for example, you come at me with a revolver, my first reaction is going to be to foul the hammer with my hand, if the hammer can't fall, I don't get hurt. same with most semis. but I do have some training in this, a street hood may not. I guess it depends on wether in your games people use weapons at all for intimidation, pushing guns into faces and such, or if they are all trained for CQB. each to their own
proposed skill knowlege CQB
its a knowlege skill mostly for the sake of augmenting a test. skill dice may be added to whatever skill is being used on targets within reach +1/8 quickness when unarmed or 1/4 qui when armed. or possibly even added to initiative if all combat is withing CQ ranges. of course the sr3 rules are complex enough.. basicly it gives those with training an advantage over those without, and could put unagmented SWAT troops back in line with chrome gun bunnies. training is king. of course this skill is a lot like the small unit tactics skill, munchins will love it.

eh. that's kinda bulky.