Uhhh.... I can't find anything in the main SR4 book that outlines rules for getting implants outside of character generation.

I'm kinda expecting a chart that shows how much physical damage is done to the patient based off of the implant's Essence cost, but I ain't seeing it. Is it in there?

Looks like that was deem to low a priority to be moved into the core book.

I dont think it was in SR3 either, was it?

Those rules were a dark chapter of SR3, though.

The rules were pretty vague in SR3's BBB. Pretty much, you found a shadowclinic and bought it like any other piece of cyber.

Considering I have as of yet to see anyone buy a piece of cyber in game, it makes sense to delegate it to another book.

Given the lower prices, this might happen much faster.

Awesome. Initiation made it into the core book, but you can't run out and get a datajack without resorting to house rules.

And yeah, it was in the SR3 core.

With greatly reduced 'ware costs in SR4 you might actually start to see it a bit more. But ya, in SR3 it was fairly rare to add 'ware after character creation unless you game had a LOT of cash floating around.

I think the question is how long will the surgery take?

I imagine you'd roll a normal availability test to find the seller (who presumably would install it too), and I'd assume the cost of surgery is included in the price of the implant.

Anyway, I started a low-powered game with the intent to award lots of karma and nuyen, so surgery will eventually be a must.

Surely there's some downtime to recover from getting your arm chopped off and your nervous system rewired.

EDIT: I changed my mind on the surgery while in the waiting room.

For lower powered characters definately. But with the highend, high cost M&M options SR3 could result in even faster recovers. Like from Deadlyish to fully healed in tens of hours. It's pretty damn tough to fully heal in less than 2 days an SR4 Troll that is in overdamage. But to use those SR3 options you basicially had to back up truckloads of cash to a high grade clinic (and have certain Edges/Powers/Body in your character).

Nanites do a good deal of the implanting, (at least according to SR2 shadowtech) It's not like they hack you open for everything...

Why not count every .1 essence lost (rounded up, so minimum .1) as one "box" of damage that has to be healed by the surgeon using the appropriate skill? (Medicine, I believe. Possibly a Medicine+Cybertechnology roll?)

An extended test with a pass of, savy, 30 minutes - so the small surgeries don't take much time, but the big ones - they take a shatload.

And *please* don't even think of adding rules for "planing an operation", operation-costs, etc.
Healing,Operation,Stress was one of the crappiest (if not THE crappiest) chapters in the whole Shadowrun-serie (and I mean ALL editions) . . . (Yeah, we *have* ignored them and made houserules)

@Gothic Rose: Nice. Though:
Doc with Medicine-6, (Whatever-Attribute) 3, Reflexes-3 (5 Essence) ->
Threshold 50, 3 Success per Roll -> 17 Rolls -> Above maximum number of rolls ...
The OP would need 8.5h

8 and a half hours to completely replace the persons spinal column and lower brain with bleeding edge technology? That sounds PERFECT to me. Consider the fact that current day surgeries can take even longer, it seems to me that something as delicate as that would take an entire day.

I'd say a Medicine (Transimplant Surgery) + Logic (Essence Cost of Cyberware/0.1, 30 minutes) Extended Test sounds about right, although I don't think boxes of damage are healed during surgery. Despite the surgical mantra "A chance to cut is a chance to cure", surgery causes deliberate wounds for a therapeutic effect. For recovery purposes, I'd apply Physical damage equal to the Essence Cost of the cyberware times 2 (round up), and you wouldn't be able to use First Aid to reduce this damage (which is pretty much a given).

The formula looks a bit awkward when put into the standard format, of course. Another formula you can use could be Medicine (Transimplant Surgery) + Logic (Essence Cost of Cyberware times [insert favorite multiplier here], 1 hour) Extended Test.

Weeeeelllll ... Making them real boxes of damage would surely kill you.
I would say something like [Nr of Hours the OP took] Damageboxes with the doc being able to reduce this somehow .. (2 Successes per Roll give you 12.5h for those reflexes... Thus 13 points of damage - now we don't want to kill a SC though ...) (Yeah, okay. We want. But not with an OP. *Bad Gamemaster* *Sit*)


I am well aware that 8.5h is relatively short - the longest OP I watched was about 10h. The longest OP I undergone about 1h (and that was just removing some splitters from my leg)

But neither are we designing a realistic system, nor are we using the kind of techniques Shadowrun has nowadays (think of nanotech). Hence I think that 8-10h for the wired-reflexes (why not wireless btw? ) is okay. And you can implant a new datajack in your lunchtime (dont know the page ... Just with the general description of meatshops I think, dont really know if it has been this edition). Thinking that this is an interface to the BRAIN itself ...

It seems to me that unless the runner is trying to get something implanted just before a run (Sorry, guys, I know I'm normally the scout, but I'll be blind until about tuesday thanks to these spiff new cybereyes) or unless they are ambushed outside the clinic ("Now, mr. runner, we will torture you for all you know." "hey... you guys are a lot less scary when I'm on metamorphine like this. Torture away! And did you notice you're kind of blurry?") then it isn't normally an issue.

If the runners are in to impromtu elective surgery, or if enemies do discover they are in a weakened state, just deny any bonuses from the cyberware in question, and deny any NORMAL use of affected parts as well (For muscle replacement and wired reflexes, you're pretty helpless). Throw in a couple boxes of damage if the procedure involved body-wide changes, or installing big hunks of metal (cyberarms?). Re-wiring stuff with nanobots probably won't cause much damage, so for most things, you probably don't need damage boxes. In most cases, none of this should be an issue, as it will happen during a group's downtime. If players are too over-eager (I want to implant wired reflexes on monday, and train martial arts on tuesday) then just ad-hoc some times together (sorry, Doc says it's a good three days before you'll be able to feel your toes again, let alone break boards with them). If you come out inconsistent with these rules, well... even if surgery WAS that predictable, the locations runners visit probably aren't. Jim's tatoo and cyberware parlor (free t-shirt with every implant!) may have implanted the datajack, but the healing times there are going to be different form room 1298, a beta clinic in Toronto (so you want some cyber, eh?).

Just figure the surgery costs (and "finding a doctor" times) are included in the normal availability and costs. And, again, in most cases, it shouldn't be an issue. If you are to the point where you need to know exactly how long a surgical procedure takes... well, you're well outside the realm of rulebook rules, and well into "plot device" land.

Though, I agree, some "ballpark" figures would be good to help judge this. A week or two for major wired reflexes is short, but consistent with SR4 healing downtimes. You'll probably spend more time in the waiting room than surgery for the (outpatient) datajack procedure. (heck, your autodoc can probably install mail-order datajacks by 2070.)

Of course. But when you really need to know how many hours have passed with that operation (hehe - implanting those reflexes just *before* the crash - will EMP hit during the operation?) you need some reference. I would toss those rolls myself - just divide the dice the doc got through 3 or 4 and calculate the time spend. Then calc the damage - and there you are. You dont need a single minute (yeah, SR3 ... it took several) and you got a rough idea how long it will take. (If you link time spend and damage it is also more important to get a good doc without adding complexity)

The point of rules like this is not just to add a little realism (which is always welcome when in convenient doses), but to also make sure runners don't nip out and get rebuilt the afternoon right before a run. Getting a hardcore vatjob done shouldn't be like ordering pizza.

It also places downtime value on the Medicine and Cybertechnology skills for those who like to play the medic.

SR1 had the simplest surgery rules and they were in the core book! It just had about 4 categories of surgery - cosmetic, minor, major and critical or something. Each had a cost and a level of damage it left you with , L M S and D.

The amount of essence an implant cost indicated what category of surgery it was. One table was all you needed!!!!

Hahnsoo is wise.

Build & repair characters, pending initiates, talismongers, social butterflies, and the like all have (or had) game-defined downtime for their upgrades. Tracking post-op downtime for the cyberfolks can be a big deal in that you're also burning purchased Lifestyle. "Time is money" and all.

In a hospital (+0), a Body(2) (+4) with 10 boxes damage (-3) and the suggested 6 boxes Stun (-2) and newly lower essensed (-2) the patient needs a Medkit(4) to even roll. Even then without more aid the patiet definately should have some Edge lest the 1 in 6 Critcal Glitch kick him straight off the mortal coil.

EDIT: Oops, that should be Medkit(4), not Medkit(6). Medkit(6) lowers the Critcal Gitch chance to about 1 in 20....which you'd definately still want Edge around for since it's death if you roll it.

But things definately perk up for higher Body folks.

Interesting Side-Note:

Right now, I fail to find anything that allows the upgrade or the replacement of Ware without additional Essence loss...

Wasn't Augmention the last book planned?

I'm a simple man with simple rules.

If I needed to determine recovery time, baseline one day in bed for each .1 essence.

Acclimation time for the cyberware and time where misfiring / misuse can happen lasts for baseline "What is dramatically appropriate and amuses me."

Both cases toned down for exceedingly common cyberware, such as datajacks, or jacked way the hell up for experimental, exotic, or second-hand cyberware.

I believe WorkOver meant that if you are going to nitpick, make sure you are correct.

You could be right. If you're not, now you're violating WO's rules. Or not, because if you're wrong then you might not be wrong about being right while you could still be right about being wrong.

Anyway, strained humor aside I meant to point out that telling people not to quibble in forums is self-defeating and ironically hypocritical, no matter the motivation behind it.

I'm cool with people telling me I'm misremembering or misinterpreting, and even cooler with it when they provide hard evidence illustrating as much. We're all here to try to decode SR4's letter and spirit; there's no reason to be rude about it. Tongue-in-cheek, sure, but not outright snippy.