I seem to have run into some rules issues and it looks like some of SR4 has been cut and pasted from SR3 without updating to suit SR4.
The rule about skills cap being 1.5 x base is fairly straight forward but then in other parts of the PDF it defies this rule, skill specialization it an example. So is the text in the Improved Ability power.
Is there an accepted interpretation for this or am I destined to make 60 house rules to fix issues such as this?
Also does it seem strange to people that you are safer on a bike than on foot when being shot at. On foot you get to roll reaction but from a vehicle you get reaction + vehicle control skill.
Full Version: Contradiction
In general the ruling that we've seemed to agree on is that if a power or device adds dice to the dice pool, then you can go beyond the skill cap (i.e. Smartlinks). However, the power or device says that it adds dice to the skill (or attribute) then it is capped as specified in the book (i.e. Improved Ability).
Also, to me, the addition of vehicle control skill is there becuase if you jerk to hard on the wheel while trying to evade incoming fire, you run the risk of a crash test.
Also, to me, the addition of vehicle control skill is there becuase if you jerk to hard on the wheel while trying to evade incoming fire, you run the risk of a crash test.
I think the wording in Improved Ability is to not penalize characters for buying +2 dice to Pistols, with a Pistols skill of 2 who wishes later to raise his Pistol to 3. Withouth the wording, his Pistol skill would be 4 for purposes of karma expenditure. With the wording, his Pistol skill would be 2 for purposes of karma expenditure.
Based on the previous verbage around skill caps, I would say the 1.5 applies to Improved Ability.
Based on the previous verbage around skill caps, I would say the 1.5 applies to Improved Ability.
There are 3 types of modifiers in SR4. Attribute modifiers (which create an Augmented Attribute rating, are generally fixed, and are capped), Skill modifiers (which create an Augmented Attribute rating, are generally fixed, and are capped) and Dice Pool modifiers (which modify the entire pool after adding together the Augmented Att and the Augmented Skill), are situational and are not capped)
Still a little miffed here.
The text for improved ability says it adds dice to the test not the skill.
And some cyberware implies that it affects both.
Still think that 90% of characters will be bikies in SR4 with a potential extra 6 dice to defend with why wouldnt you.
Im not trying to argue the twink side of this I understand that if the rule is such that you can make an attack ridiculosly strong so can NPC's which will mean many dead PC's, just trying to straigten out the mess.
The text for improved ability says it adds dice to the test not the skill.
And some cyberware implies that it affects both.
Still think that 90% of characters will be bikies in SR4 with a potential extra 6 dice to defend with why wouldnt you.
Im not trying to argue the twink side of this I understand that if the rule is such that you can make an attack ridiculosly strong so can NPC's which will mean many dead PC's, just trying to straigten out the mess.
I'm just trying to imagine someone riding a bike around a building, making periodic crash tests, and constantly having to stop then pull out their weapon to shoot....unless they convince the GM to let them install pintle mount.
Vehicles dodge using the pilot's reaction +/- Handling. You only add your vehicle skill when you take a Complex Action to undertake evasive driving (the equivalent of Full Defense). Of course, you get a +3 to dodge for being inside a moving vehicle (p151) if the metahuman is being targeted instead of the bike, but this stacks on top of being a passenger in a moving vehicle which gives a -2 to dodge (p162) for a net +1. Against the attacker's dice pool, there are cover bonuses which is probably a -2 for a bike, -6 for being in a car.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Skill modifiers (which create an Augmented Attribute rating, are generally fixed, and are capped) |
Can you give me an example of one of these? So far, I've only found dice pool modifiers
Yeah, it's pretty insane. Even reflex recorders (which you would think would be EXACTLY what this moronic rule is trying to address) add to the dice pool.
At least im not the only one that thinks it is clearly unclear.
I can not find anything that would directly apply to the cap, everthing is a pool mod or additional dice for the test.
Specializations clearly are not part of the cap the wording is they always add 2 dice when the specialty applies and the sample characters with specialties on skills under 4 still take the full 2 dice.
I can live with the obvious math errors (Fletchette rounds for instance) but this skill cap issue really needs clarification.
The only solution I can see at the moment is to say the cap includes everything except range and stuff on the modifiers tables. This means certain cyber will never be used because it would be a waste of cred.
I can not find anything that would directly apply to the cap, everthing is a pool mod or additional dice for the test.
Specializations clearly are not part of the cap the wording is they always add 2 dice when the specialty applies and the sample characters with specialties on skills under 4 still take the full 2 dice.
I can live with the obvious math errors (Fletchette rounds for instance) but this skill cap issue really needs clarification.
The only solution I can see at the moment is to say the cap includes everything except range and stuff on the modifiers tables. This means certain cyber will never be used because it would be a waste of cred.
Honestly, I say just ignore the cap, or make it along the lines of: You cannot add more dice (via pool modification or skill modification) than your current skill rating.
I think I'm just going to rule the dice pool modifier and the skill modifier as being exactly the same thing, however the 1.5 cap will apply after all modifiers, effectively meaning that though they can never exceed 1.5 times the base rating, they can take more penalties without losing dice
Edit - Scratch that. Too much bookkeeping when you need to take in to account situational dice pool modifiers etc which aren't limited to 1.5 times your base skill rating (or are they?)
Edit - Scratch that. Too much bookkeeping when you need to take in to account situational dice pool modifiers etc which aren't limited to 1.5 times your base skill rating (or are they?)
Dice Pool (situational) modifiers are not capped.
The way to track things is actually quite simple. Modifiers that augment Atts and Skills are normally represented as a single value in parenthesis next to the relevant Att or Skill in the relevant section of the character sheet (and for the most part are fixed - except those that have trigger mechanisms/conditions).
Dice Pool modifiers are not represented in the Att or Skill sections of the character sheet.
Skill specialization might be considered nebulous, but I would note that it doesn't change/augment the Skill rating (like it did in SR3), but instead the text says, "A specialization grants the character 2 extra dice on tests(...)" and then only when the specialization applies.
The way to track things is actually quite simple. Modifiers that augment Atts and Skills are normally represented as a single value in parenthesis next to the relevant Att or Skill in the relevant section of the character sheet (and for the most part are fixed - except those that have trigger mechanisms/conditions).
Dice Pool modifiers are not represented in the Att or Skill sections of the character sheet.
Skill specialization might be considered nebulous, but I would note that it doesn't change/augment the Skill rating (like it did in SR3), but instead the text says, "A specialization grants the character 2 extra dice on tests(...)" and then only when the specialization applies.
When you try to use notation as distinction, specializations are the only certainly capped bonus.
| QUOTE (SR4 p. 109) |
| Some spells, abilities and implants may provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modifi ed skill rating, but this does not change the base skill rating. These extra dice are listed in parentheses after the base skill, as in Spellcasting 4 (+2). |
| QUOTE (SR4 p. 109) |
| Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test. [...] A specialization’s rating is usually listed in parentheses after the skill name. For example, if a character with the Pistols skill at 3 specializes in the use of Revolvers, that character’s skill and specialization would read Pistol 3 (Revolver +2). |
The problem is that there is not fixed notation outside example characters and specialisations... every implant varies it's wording slightly.
Could you just give us a list of the common things that are specifically considered to be affected by the Skill Cap, Synner?
I don't really have as much of a problem with identifying Attribute Modifiers.
I don't really have as much of a problem with identifying Attribute Modifiers.
Now you start to see the crux of the issue Specialization breaks the 1.5 rule when skills are not 4 or better so how can it be capped?
What is really amazing is that all the time playtesting they never found things like this or they would have been fixed.
What is really amazing is that all the time playtesting they never found things like this or they would have been fixed.
Oh, there is nothing that forbids having something giving larger bonus than that - just, it wouldn't use a thing.
So, in fact... to get full benefits from a , you would need a skill of 4+.
So, in fact... to get full benefits from a , you would need a skill of 4+.
| QUOTE (Svilazna @ Oct 8 2005, 12:50 PM) |
| Now you start to see the crux of the issue Specialization breaks the 1.5 rule when skills are not 4 or better so how can it be capped? What is really amazing is that all the time playtesting they never found things like this or they would have been fixed. |
I may be misunderstanding you, but I think you're interpreting the cap as applying to being current Skill Rating x 1.5. This is understandable but incorrect (the writeup on page 63 should probably have read "maximum natural rating". In practice the caps are relevant only to determine Maximum Augmented Ratings (Skill, Att. or other). Hence the reference to ratings 9 and 10 in the relevant entry.
| QUOTE |
| Could you just give us a list of the common things that are specifically considered to be affected by the Skill Cap, Synner? |
DireRadiant provided a rather nice breakdown in the other thread (I've made two minor fixes):
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) |
Skill Modifiers - Adept Power -- Improved Ability p 187 - Magic -- Analyze Device p 200 - Cyberware -- Control Rig VEHICLE p 331 - Bioware -- Enhanced Articulation PHYSICAL SKILL + PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTE p 338 -- Mnemonic Enhancer LANGUAGE AND KNOWLEDGE SKILLS -- Synthacardium ATHLETICS p 339 -- Tailored Pheromones CHARISMA + SOCIAL p 339 -- Reflex recorder PHYSICAL COMBAT p 340 |
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| I may be misunderstanding you, but I think you're interpreting the cap as applying to being current Skill Rating x 1.5. This is understandable but incorrect (the writeup on page 63 should probably have read "maximum natural rating". In practice the caps are relevant only to determine Maximum Augmented Ratings (Skill, Att. or other). Hence the reference to ratings 9 and 10 in the relevant entry. |
Sorry, but you are wrong - that rule is pretty explicit:
| QUOTE (SR4 p. 109) |
| The unmodified skill rating assigned at character creation or purchased during game play is considered to be the character’s base skill rating. [...] A modified skill cannot exceed the base skill rating x1.5 |
The reference about
| QUOTE (SR4 p. 109) |
| (making 9 the maximum possible rating, or 10 with the Aptitude Quality). |
thus refers to the absoluabsolutelyble highest rating, given a base skill of 6 or 7.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Oct 8 2005, 04:48 PM) | ||||||
Sorry, but you are wrong - that rule is pretty explicit:
The reference about
thus refers to the absoluabsolutelyble highest rating, given a base skill of 6 or 7. |
I stand corrected. My rereading of page 63 where the cap is originally mentioned bore out what had cropped up during playtesting, so I didn't look for a possible contradiction on a later page. All I can say is this was that it was brought up in playtesting and what I've posted was essentially the answer I got back at the time. Note this does not reflect FanPro's final product or any later decision, but what came up in playtest reports and feedback.
I suggest someone fire off a question to FanPro about the issue and get a clarification.
It does make more sense using the natural maximum levels as a base value. It would also make the many examples in the book correct.
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 8 2005, 12:04 PM) |
| It does make more sense using the natural maximum levels as a base value. It would also make the many examples in the book correct. |
That it actually makes many of the examples correct is a big reason why i understood it that way, coupled with Attributes working that. It could be that on page 109...
| QUOTE |
| A modified skill cannot exceed the base skill rating x1.5 |
...it is erroneously missing the word "maximum" between "the" and "base".
It still doesn't make much sense though, or at least, it doesn't appear easy to bookkeep.
Do we assume that all dice pool modifiers are limited by the 1.5 times maximum? This would mean that even after counting smartlinks, aimed shots, tracer rounds etc, you could never get more than 9 extra dice on top of your attribute dice when trying to shoot someone.
Or do we assume that the skill modifying dice pool modifiers are limited to 1.5, but other dice pool modifiers aren't? And if this is the case, how are you meant to differentiate between the two different types of dice pool modifier?
Do we assume that all dice pool modifiers are limited by the 1.5 times maximum? This would mean that even after counting smartlinks, aimed shots, tracer rounds etc, you could never get more than 9 extra dice on top of your attribute dice when trying to shoot someone.
Or do we assume that the skill modifying dice pool modifiers are limited to 1.5, but other dice pool modifiers aren't? And if this is the case, how are you meant to differentiate between the two different types of dice pool modifier?
| QUOTE (NightRain) |
| It still doesn't make much sense though, or at least, it doesn't appear easy to bookkeep. Do we assume that all dice pool modifiers are limited by the 1.5 times maximum? This would mean that even after counting smartlinks, aimed shots, tracer rounds etc, you could never get more than 9 extra dice on top of your attribute dice when trying to shoot someone. |
No.
| QUOTE |
| Or do we assume that the skill modifying dice pool modifiers are limited to 1.5, but other dice pool modifiers aren't? And if this is the case, how are you meant to differentiate between the two different types of dice pool modifier? |
There is another thread where someone came up with a listing sorting them into 3 catagories, which is a good starting point. Once you get it set into your mind what catagory each is, as Synner describes them, it isn't that hard to sort. But the authors should have been a LOT tighter on their terminology.
I came up with a pretty simple solution for my group. I told them that skills are capped at 9 (10 with Aptitude) and that any skill that is raised above 9 (or 10) for any reason gets dropped down to their cap. I also made ominous threats about Thor Shots if any of them tried stuff like Pistols 1 and Improved Ability Pistols 6 out of chargen. But my group isn't a bunch of tards like that, so it's all good. Really, I'm too lazy to go back and look at all their skills and modifiers and specializations to see if they're within the x1.5 rule. So as long as they don't get stupid, I won't have to kill them. 
To paraphrase something I said in the other thread:
| QUOTE |
|
In the vast majority of in game situations, you should not have to calculate the first Attribute and Skill Rating modifiers. You just refer to the listed value and add that together as part of the Skill + Att sum to produce your base Dice Pool. Rating modifiers, as I call them, only really come into play as Augmented Att or Skill Ratings and so are pretty much static - you could say the caps are on the Ratings rather than the modifiers.
The latter, Dice Pool modifiers, are the only modifiers that really need to be calculated (again exception made to the rare Att and Skill modifiers which aren't considered to be always "on"). Dice Pool modifiers are generally situational and circumstancial and fluctuate positively and negatively. They are easily identified because they have no notation on Att and Skill Ratings on the character sheet, are not listed in parenthesis (ie. smartgun links, laser sights, visibility modifiers, movement modifiers) and in most cases either their description specifically states they are dice pool modifiers or they appear on lists of situational dice pool modifiers (ie. combat). Finally, they modify your Dice Pool after Augmented Att + Skill have been added together. To the best of my knowledge, at no point does the book state that these are capped.
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