)? How many are using house rules to limit the changes? Are the new 'ware rules useful or cumbersome?Whatever you wish to voice might help those who are still waiting on the paperbacks.
Full Version: General Consensus?
SR4 has been out on PDF long enough to get a general idea of it. How is it? Do the errors make it unplayable? Do the new rules streamline and speed up gameplay (in your opinion, of course, no flamefests )? How many are using house rules to limit the changes? Are the new 'ware rules useful or cumbersome?
Whatever you wish to voice might help those who are still waiting on the paperbacks.
)? How many are using house rules to limit the changes? Are the new 'ware rules useful or cumbersome?Whatever you wish to voice might help those who are still waiting on the paperbacks.
Its not changed rules, it a whole new game, but it smacks of Shadowrun and I like it a lot.
Specifically:
I like the changes to setting regarding AR and Bioware.
The Rigging system is better than ever and the Matrix system still needs a flowchart for a typical run, but both are strong.
I like the combat system.
Magic is a bit too powerful since defenders without counterspelling use 1 stat (willpower) versus 2 stats (Sorcery+Magic). Too hard to reduce damage even by a tricked out non-mage.
I dislike the 'short list' of gear and cyberware that will hopefully be amended in expansions.
I like the Edge system a lot.
All in all, a great product!
Specifically:
I like the changes to setting regarding AR and Bioware.
The Rigging system is better than ever and the Matrix system still needs a flowchart for a typical run, but both are strong.
I like the combat system.
Magic is a bit too powerful since defenders without counterspelling use 1 stat (willpower) versus 2 stats (Sorcery+Magic). Too hard to reduce damage even by a tricked out non-mage.
I dislike the 'short list' of gear and cyberware that will hopefully be amended in expansions.
I like the Edge system a lot.
All in all, a great product!
To answer your questions, in my opinion of course:
It's great.
The errors, not really unplayable, no more than SR3.
Yes, the new rules do speed up gameplay, (We did 20 man combat in under an hour, just to show we could)
Our only houserule is that magic augs and matrix augs stack instead of capping each other.
The new ware rules are a bit better, I really like the concept of capacity.
My only concern: The new matrix rules are just too open ended.
Hope I helped
It's great.
The errors, not really unplayable, no more than SR3.
Yes, the new rules do speed up gameplay, (We did 20 man combat in under an hour, just to show we could)
Our only houserule is that magic augs and matrix augs stack instead of capping each other.
The new ware rules are a bit better, I really like the concept of capacity.
My only concern: The new matrix rules are just too open ended.
Hope I helped
the errors aren't generally too bad, IMO.
stuff like referencing wrong page numbers, typos, and whatnot seem to be most of it. and most of those it's fairly evident what they meant.
personally, i dislike some of the new naming conventions (for example, you won't hear 'drek' any more, which i personally prefer to the straight-up swearing they use). i also prefer decker and otaku over hackers and technomancers, but these are all changes that are easily made if you prefer.
the main dislike i have about the game is the set-in-stone limits... i personally really like the aspect of 3rd edition where you could keep on boosting a skill, but eventually you were just gonna get such a low value out of it that you boost something else instead. to put it another way, SR3 kinda walks up to you and says "hey, you might wanna try building up something else", whereas SR4 hits you upside the head with a mallet while screaming "you can't get any better at this! improve something else!!!"
of course, should you happen to just focus on magic or technomancy, then you have unlimited potential for some reason. just if you don't have either of those things going for you, you will hit a brick wall that keeps you from going any higher.
stuff like referencing wrong page numbers, typos, and whatnot seem to be most of it. and most of those it's fairly evident what they meant.
personally, i dislike some of the new naming conventions (for example, you won't hear 'drek' any more, which i personally prefer to the straight-up swearing they use). i also prefer decker and otaku over hackers and technomancers, but these are all changes that are easily made if you prefer.
the main dislike i have about the game is the set-in-stone limits... i personally really like the aspect of 3rd edition where you could keep on boosting a skill, but eventually you were just gonna get such a low value out of it that you boost something else instead. to put it another way, SR3 kinda walks up to you and says "hey, you might wanna try building up something else", whereas SR4 hits you upside the head with a mallet while screaming "you can't get any better at this! improve something else!!!"
of course, should you happen to just focus on magic or technomancy, then you have unlimited potential for some reason. just if you don't have either of those things going for you, you will hit a brick wall that keeps you from going any higher.
It probably contains just as many errors and vague rules as the entirety of SR3, but the overall system is more streamlined and therefore easier to chew on.
I like it; I appreciate the fact that they identified a lot of failings of all previous editions and eliminated/mitigated most of them in occasionally elegant design decisions.
Yeah, they dropped the ball in a few places, but every system is like that. It's kinda like the two questions you should ask when getting a new girlfriend:
1) Do her merits overshadow her flaws?
2) Can I tolerate her flaws enough to make everything else enjoyable?
With respect to SR4, my personal opinions are:
1) Yep.
2) Likely. If not, I'll beat her until she changes.
I like it; I appreciate the fact that they identified a lot of failings of all previous editions and eliminated/mitigated most of them in occasionally elegant design decisions.
Yeah, they dropped the ball in a few places, but every system is like that. It's kinda like the two questions you should ask when getting a new girlfriend:
1) Do her merits overshadow her flaws?
2) Can I tolerate her flaws enough to make everything else enjoyable?
With respect to SR4, my personal opinions are:
1) Yep.
2) Likely. If not, I'll beat her until she changes.
Even if I stated many errors and complained a lot about SR4 in the latest weeks, it's still a good product and I have fun playing it.
The edge rule is really great.
As everyone seems to say: the matrix rules can use a little clarification...
The edge rule is really great.
As everyone seems to say: the matrix rules can use a little clarification...
| QUOTE (Wasabi @ Oct 7 2005, 10:04 AM) |
| Magic is a bit too powerful since defenders without counterspelling use 1 stat (willpower) versus 2 stats (Sorcery+Magic). Too hard to reduce damage even by a tricked out non-mage. |
Yup, for direct spells if you don't have a friendly Counterspelling magician/mystic adept with LOS to you are just as hooped as before.
However Counterspelling evens the playing field much more as it does not deplete with use, and does not cost the magician/mystic adept elsewhere to allocate defense.
I'd say there are a number of areas that are more vague at this point than optimal IMO, but certainly still playable. There are a few ugly typographical errors in the first printing (a few tables) and some other obvious stuff that is a bit of a pain, but for the most part that's all fixed up with the one page offical errata on the ShadowrunRPG site.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
Yup, for direct spells if you don't have a friendly Counterspelling magician/mystic adept with LOS to you are just as hooped as before. However Counterspelling evens the playing field much more as it does not deplete with use, and does not cost the magician/mystic adept elsewhere to allocate defense. |
The balance is that said spellcaster has a chance of doing damage to himself in the process. Plus, he did spend extra BPs in character generation.
Despite my initial misgivings and gripes, I fraggin' love the way this system works! Seriously folks. We finally got to get going with our trial (that is, with minimal house rules) campaign last weekend, and it totally rules. Combat is so quick and easy that it melds into non-combat play even more smoothly than d20 does. Here's an example:
* Under 1st edition SR, my original crew back in the day ran Food Fight as our first "run". The combat portion (3 turns game time) took nearly an hour and a half to run.
* Under 2nd & 3rd edition, the average time to run a 3 turn combat has, over the years, averaged about a half hour.
* Under 4th edition, the run we were on included two combats (2-3 turns each), each of which took about 10 minutes start to end. With two new-to-SR players.
All I can say is Damn!
That said, there we'll probably end up with some house rules (no caps on skill advancement for one), but nowhere near the 20+ pages of house rules we used in SR3.
* Under 1st edition SR, my original crew back in the day ran Food Fight as our first "run". The combat portion (3 turns game time) took nearly an hour and a half to run.
* Under 2nd & 3rd edition, the average time to run a 3 turn combat has, over the years, averaged about a half hour.
* Under 4th edition, the run we were on included two combats (2-3 turns each), each of which took about 10 minutes start to end. With two new-to-SR players.
All I can say is Damn!
That said, there we'll probably end up with some house rules (no caps on skill advancement for one), but nowhere near the 20+ pages of house rules we used in SR3.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| The balance is that said spellcaster has a chance of doing damage to himself in the process. Plus, he did spend extra BPs in character generation. |
Only if they glitch a roll....and since the skill in the only die source other than foci, it's one of the few SR4 skills where it is probably better to have none than 1 unless you have yourself a nice, beefy foci helping you out.
That brings up the subject of Counterspelling foci. They are really cheap, during character creation they only cost 6BP (including cash) for a bound Force 3. A steal of a deal.
P.S. If you have a good Medkit, First Aid is the only other skill example of none better than 1 that comes to mind.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
Only if they glitch a roll.... |
Or take Drain.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
Only if they glitch a roll.... |
I was referring to how casters can take drain.
Fortune FTW.
Just barely! 
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 7 2005, 11:42 AM) | ||||
Or take Drain. |
You only take drain on Spell Defense you glitch (and the GM decides that you didn't instead deflect the spell onto someone else).
| QUOTE (mid-left page 176) |
| Using Counterspelling to defend against a spell as it is cast does not cause Drain. |
It is Dispelling that can [normally] cause drain.
No, no, we're talking about drain taken by the caster while casting a spell.
That is to say:
1) Spellcasting has the offender using an Attribute and a Skill for the attack, while the defender gets only an Attribute to defend (unless they have the Counterspelling skill in play). Meanwhile, the caster is effectively doing (at most) half of that damage to himself and resisting it with Willpower + another Mental Attribute.
2) In contrast, gunplay has the offender using an Attribute and Skill for the attack, while the defender gets only Reaction to defend and then Body (+ Armor) to soak. However, the only drain the shooter has to worry about is a depleted clip.
That is to say:
1) Spellcasting has the offender using an Attribute and a Skill for the attack, while the defender gets only an Attribute to defend (unless they have the Counterspelling skill in play). Meanwhile, the caster is effectively doing (at most) half of that damage to himself and resisting it with Willpower + another Mental Attribute.
2) In contrast, gunplay has the offender using an Attribute and Skill for the attack, while the defender gets only Reaction to defend and then Body (+ Armor) to soak. However, the only drain the shooter has to worry about is a depleted clip.
| QUOTE (Azralon @ Oct 7 2005, 12:06 PM) |
| No, no, we're talking about drain taken by the caster while casting a spell. |
Ah. Well given the imbalance of drain vs. effect for a number of the spells, i wouldn't rely on that much.
Counterspelling is really a requirement against a serious sorcery threat. Likewise for dealing with spirits you are mostly hooped without magical means of some sort, or block leveling mundane firepower, against high level spirits....unless the GM mixes in SR3 interpretation and lets them have at it with "elemental" attacks.P.S. That brings up what i consider the biggest single busted in SR4 is spirits and there insane stats.
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 7 2005, 02:12 PM) |
| the biggest single busted in SR4 is spirits and there insane stats |
Well, they do double their Force in drain to the summoner. So there's a price to pay (aside from worrying about them going uncontrolled or getting stolen away from you).
I haven't looked into it deeply yet; is a burst from the Ares Viper Slivergun still as good of a spiritual countermeasure as before? I mean, technically spirits are unarmored...
Technically, they have Hardend Armor, with all the implications.
| QUOTE (Azralon @ Oct 7 2005, 01:19 PM) |
| I haven't looked into it deeply yet; is a burst from the Ares Viper Slivergun still as good of a spiritual countermeasure as before? I mean, technically spirits are unarmored... |
The AVS isn't a good tool to use against spirits, in both 3rd and 4th edition. Spirits are considered to have hardened armor through their immunity to normal weapons power. The unarmored bonuses for flechette ammo don't apply, and in 4th edition, they get 2 more points of armor because of the +2 AP.
I will agree that spirits in 4th edition are much too powerful. You might want to rein in the Reaction in particular (in our games, we've house-ruled that their Reaction is equal to their Agility) and put a cap on their skills to a maximum of 6.
Mm. I don't recall Immunity to Normal Weapons being considered hardened armor in SR3, but I'll trust you until I get a chance to look it up.
I just checked the SR4 text, and yup there be hardened armor there these days at least. APDS, then?
I just checked the SR4 text, and yup there be hardened armor there these days at least. APDS, then?
Here's the entry from SR3 p 264
| QUOTE |
| IMMUNITY Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always This power gives the critter an “Armor Rating” equal to twice its Essence when resisting damage from whatever it has immunity against. In addition, if the Power of the damage does not exceed twice the creature’s Essence, it automatically has no effect. This power works against both magical and nonmagical effects. Note that beings with immunity to age do not age, and never suffer the effects of aging. Immunity to fire works against any fire-based attack. Immunity to normal weapons has no effect against Combat Spells or Weapon Foci. Against elemental damage (such as fire, water cannon, elemental manipulation spells and so on) the effect is halved (Armor Rating equal to Essence). APDS, AVM, and other armor-piercing ammunitions are treated as normal ammunition against creatures with this power |
Here's the entry from Critters:
| QUOTE |
| IMMUNITY Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always The Immunity power gives the critter the equivalent of an Armor Rating equal to twice its Essence for resisting damage from the thing against which it has immunity. In addition, if the Power of the damage does not exceed twice the creature’s Essence, it automatically has no effect. This power works against both magical and non-magical effects. Note that beings with Immunity to Age do not age and never suffer the effects of aging. Immunity to Fire works against fire and any fire-based attacks. Immunity to Cold works against cold temperatures and any cold-based attacks. Immunity to Normal Weapons does not protect against combat spells or weapon foci. Against weapons that inflict elemental damage (such as fire, water cannon, elemental manipulation spells and so on) the effect of the Immunity to Normal Weapons power is halved (Armor Rating equal to Essence). Treat APDS, AVM, and other armor-piercing ammunitions as normal ammunition against creatures with the Immunity to Normal Weapons power. Creatures with the Immunity to Control power subtract twice their Essence from the Force of any spell (or Essence of any power) used in an attempt to control them. |
Thank ya for looking it up and posting it.
And yeah, the AVS loaded with APDS instead of flechettes is (still) just an all-around better weapon than a Predator. Versus spirits or not.
And yeah, the AVS loaded with APDS instead of flechettes is (still) just an all-around better weapon than a Predator. Versus spirits or not.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| And yeah, the AVS loaded with APDS instead of flechettes is (still) just an all-around better weapon than a Predator. Versus spirits or not. |
It's a general consensus that you can't load an AVS with ammo other than flechettes. This part of the description didn't survive between editing of SR editions, but most GMs enforce this, preventing that cheese.
As a segue to the thread topic: Some things really needed to be carried over in some form to SR4, but weren't.
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Thank ya for looking it up and posting it. And yeah, the AVS loaded with APDS instead of flechettes is (still) just an all-around better weapon than a Predator. Versus spirits or not. |
And that works because the Ares Viper Slivergun doesn't explicitly state that it can only use it's own custom flechette ammo...?
-I don't mind the new basic format of the rules, with a nWoD kinda style, cheesy at first glance but not bad.
-I hate the way they handled the skill cap. With a passion. Theres got to be a better way, and I intend to house rule it til I find it.
-Edge is awesome, it replaces and rebalances the old karma pool nicely. And it gives humans an... edge.
-Story is nice, but could be better. I've always wondered one thing about the SR history in general... where did all the Native Americans come from? Aren't there a sadly low number of them even today?
-Technomancers are wiz, have a few holes in the story and some clarifications on how they work rule wise are needed, but a favorite addition to be sure.
-The new wireless setup is interesting, and are in dire need of clarification. Or at least a reference to base off of.
-Spirits need a bit of balancing, but I don't think it'll take much effort to do that.
-explanations of a few skills are needed in a few places... like instruction.
-Errors... so.... many.... errors... *twitch*
unfortunately, I think they needed to tinker and improve before releasing this edition. I know it would take more time... but I'd prefer the improved product.
-I hate the way they handled the skill cap. With a passion. Theres got to be a better way, and I intend to house rule it til I find it.
-Edge is awesome, it replaces and rebalances the old karma pool nicely. And it gives humans an... edge.
-Story is nice, but could be better. I've always wondered one thing about the SR history in general... where did all the Native Americans come from? Aren't there a sadly low number of them even today?
-Technomancers are wiz, have a few holes in the story and some clarifications on how they work rule wise are needed, but a favorite addition to be sure.
-The new wireless setup is interesting, and are in dire need of clarification. Or at least a reference to base off of.
-Spirits need a bit of balancing, but I don't think it'll take much effort to do that.
-explanations of a few skills are needed in a few places... like instruction.
-Errors... so.... many.... errors... *twitch*
unfortunately, I think they needed to tinker and improve before releasing this edition. I know it would take more time... but I'd prefer the improved product.
| QUOTE (Chandon @ Oct 7 2005, 02:54 PM) |
| And that works because the Ares Viper Slivergun doesn't explicitly state that it can only use it's own custom flechette ammo...? |
Reportedly it explicitly stated that in SR3. I haven't found any SR4 text to that effect (yea or nay).
However, previous posts recommend that there be houseruling to that effect. I'd be comfortable either way; it'd be like spending 150 nuyen to turn a Pred IV into a slightly less-available gun that does 1 more damage, has double clip capacity, and has a burstfire mode.
Maybe it could be a project for someone with the Armorer skill to mod a AVS to accept APDS. I did have a game in which I was asked if a gunslinger could dikote his flechettes; at some point acceptable innovation gets gamebreaking.
I'm pretty pleased with the atmosphere and feeling of the game, but the mechanics are still causing me problems. A lot of the stuff is downright silly (such as the layering of vision enhancement fiasco), while others are odd (jammers are now forbidden equipment, along with tailored pheremones).
I'm curious. Can you 'shut off' tailored pheremones, or can anyone with an olfactory sensor just walk up and slap cuffs on you? Maybe it's impossible to distinguish between tailored and real pheremones, and you have to inspect for surgery on the character?
I'm curious. Can you 'shut off' tailored pheremones, or can anyone with an olfactory sensor just walk up and slap cuffs on you? Maybe it's impossible to distinguish between tailored and real pheremones, and you have to inspect for surgery on the character?
| QUOTE (Prosper @ Oct 7 2005, 10:13 PM) |
| jammers are now forbidden equipment |
Given the fact that you can black out the life-line of modern society... they should have been in SR3, too.
And yeah, tailored pheromones now seem a very dangerous investment.
Other than the text in SR4 that states that an AVS fires metal slivers (which count as flechette ammunition)? Doesn't sound like regular ammo to me.
if you want to get technical about it, *any* gun can fire metal slivers. furthermore, flechette ammo is completely interchangeable between, say, an Ares Predator and a Slivergun.
also, you could presumably have explosive slivers, or armor piercing slivers.
i do have to say though, it falls more within the spirit of the rules (ie, it is the spirit of the rules, whereas ruling otherwise is not) that a slivergun may only fire flechette rounds.
however, if you were to allow rules-lawyering to work, the slivergun can, RAW, fire any type of ammo (well... maybe not that panther ammo...)
for the record, i can't find any limitations in SR3 core rule book either, although i think cannon companion clarified that sliverguns fire only flechette.
also, you could presumably have explosive slivers, or armor piercing slivers.
i do have to say though, it falls more within the spirit of the rules (ie, it is the spirit of the rules, whereas ruling otherwise is not) that a slivergun may only fire flechette rounds.
however, if you were to allow rules-lawyering to work, the slivergun can, RAW, fire any type of ammo (well... maybe not that panther ammo...)
for the record, i can't find any limitations in SR3 core rule book either, although i think cannon companion clarified that sliverguns fire only flechette.
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