Here's a potentially odd question. Say I wanted to buy the Computer skill at 5, but I didn't want the character to be a slouch in the rest of the Electronics group (rating 4 in the others). Would I have to then spend (5+4+4+4)*4 = 64BP for the privelege, or could I, at chargen, layer the Computer skill on top of the Electronics skill group? And, if I could do such a thing, would I only pay 4*10(for the group) + 1*4(raise the Computer skill by 1) = 44BP, or would I pay 4*10(for the group) + 5*4(raise the Computer skill from 0 to 5) = 60BP?

You'd pay 64 BP, by canon character creation rules. There are no references stating that one could break up a skill group at character creation. All of the archetypes with "broken up" skill groups buy each skill separately, and all references to skill groups being broken up refer to Karmic increases in individual skills.

*shrugs* Feel free to house rule it, if your group doesn't think that's fair.

Edit: *duh*

To be fair, I don't see a single sample character that took *all* of the skills in a group seperately instead of taking them as a group (even when sometimes it would be far cheaper that way.) The Combat Mage doesn't have Ritual Magic to fill out a Sorcery group; the Face doesn't have Leadership to fill out an Influence group; the Covert Ops doesn't have Palming to fill out a Stealth skill group, etc etc.

Most seem built deliberately sub-optimal as well, so you can be sure they wouldn't be taking advantage of any system tricks like this.

And for the record I think that it's very stupid to be forcing a player to throw away 20 build points just because he wants to combine the cost-savings of a group but still get one of its interior skills near the chargen limit.

But it doesn't though. All you're doing is, at chargen, having someone buy up a skill group first, then split it off to raise one or two skills by another point, all during chargen. Since it's perfectly fine to break up and even reform skill groups post-chargen, why does it suddenly become illegal during chargen? The 16-point difference between Electronics 4 and Electronics 4, Computer 4 doesn't make you more versatile or get you more options, and in fact you don't need to do such a think *after* chargen to raise an individual skill in a group either. All you're doing is double-paying for the same skill.

To me it just seems unreasonable to force a guy to spend 16 or more extra build points just for the privilege of raising one individual skill in a group by one rank. You can't raise the whole group above 4 at chargen, but you can have one of the individual skills in that group raised to 5 or 6, and after chargen it only costs the amount of karma to raise one skill from 4 to 5 to get that one skill at 5. So why the gigantic barrier-to-entry for raising one of the individual skills in that group to a 5 during chargen, if it doesn't exist afterward?

It makes sense to me: balance.

I agree with Eyeless Blond. I see no logical reason why Groups couldn't be split at chargen.

why is it that you can only have 1 skill at 6 (or 7, with appropriate qualities) or two at 5 and the rest are max 4? why is it the same for attributes?

if you're not gonna question the rest of the chargen concept, then what's so unusual about not being able to split up skill groups? just asking 'cause i'm curious...

It isn't balanced for people to spend different relative costs to buy things at chargen and after. It hasn't been balanced in any game ever printed, and it isn't balanced in SR4 either.

If character ability A costs twice as much as character ability B during chargen, it had sure as hell better cost twice as much after chargen as well, or imbalance has been created. Skill groups are just an accounting gimic, they don't actually do anything special. It should cost exactly as much to break them up and reform them as it does to buy them straight. Always. Before chargen, during chargen, and after chargen. Anything else is unbalanced by definition.

-Frank

well, if you're gonna argue that, then you should use BeCKS, because SR4 already has a different cost system depending on wether you are making a character, or advancing it.

basicly rename build points to karma and one have SR4 becks?

My guess is that skill groups are meant to further guide us along the lines of a well-rounded character with a few fields of expertise (or at least "fields of familiarity").

People typically say "I want to play a gun guy" or "I want to be a tech-savvy burglar." By adding skill groups, it simplifies the character building process into conceptual synergies. It also rewards the character for having a theme.

Now, I ain't saying that's altogether a good thing. I'm in the camp that wishes "chargen build points = gameplay karma points." Symmetry is a big thing with me, as it implies balance. I like balance; it leads to fewer metagame discussions and more actual gameplay. It also makes me feel comfortable that I didn't inadvertently "screw myself" by cranking out a "sub-optimal" build.

Telling me that 1 attribute point is (usually) worth a flat 10 BPs in chargen but has a multiplicative scale during gameplay makes me consider taking only 5's and 2's for my humans to take advantage of the imbalance. Likewise with skills; BPs are so precious that I can't help but try to spend them wisely using the options presented.

Anyway, I think the intention of skill groups is a noble one. The execution ended up lacking.

It's sort of a separate discussion, but Azralon is absolutely right. It's more "optimal" to go with 1's and 5's, and raise those 1's during gameplay. It's the same problem that Exalted/WoD games suffer. It's also the reason that for Exalted, I handed out (the equivalent of) Build Points rather than Karma.

Calypso

Well now you're getting into the problem that sometimes it's just plain dumb to not take a skill group. And that I agree is a problem.

For instance, the hacker I'm working on wants to have Computer 4, Data Search 4, Software 2. Which, as it happens, is the same price as having Electronics Group 4, so it makes no sense for him to not get the group. Except, I don't WANT him to have a 4 in Hardware.

Calypso

Yes, the four part skill groups have the result where it is actually more expensive to have 3 skills out of them than it is to have all four. I don't view this as a problem. As I stated earlier, the largest problem in terms of raw game balance is that it is so expensive for players to have mundane skill in the first place. In the face of that, I don't think that it much matters whether it costs too much to have an overall inadequate amount of skill.

I think that the cost should probably be written:

+1 to first skill in group: 2 points
+1 to second skill in group: 2 points
+1 to all remaining skills in group: 1 point

And yes, I do only charge players 5 BPs for +1 to an entire skill group. It is absolutely absurd that skill groups would cost as much as attributes. They are not as good, they should cost less.

Note that with this write-up, you don't have the option of not having the extra point of hardware, but that a character who specializes in Software right out of the gate and then ultimately diversifies into being good at the whole elctronics suite ends up paying just as much as the character who starts as an electronics generalist and brings everything up evenly to eventually be good at the entire electronics suite. That is as it should be.

-Frank

I think Frank's got the right idea here, and I'm amazed that the devs didn't see the same thing. As a post-chargen extension I'd rewrite things as such:

+1 to first skill in group: New Rating x1.5 karma
+1 to second skill in group: New Rating x1.5 karma
+1 to all remaining skills in group: New Rating x.5 karma
+1 to attribute: New Rating x6 karma

Or something to that effect. It still makes attributes a slightly better deal post-chargen than during chargen though; maybe up attributes to rating x7?

But back to the RAW. I'm not sure why people are balking so much at the idea of being able to split up and reform skill groups at chargen as easily as they can be afterward. Just because the chargen rules have nothing to say in the matter and the post-chargen rules specifically allow it does not mean it's explicedly forbidden during chargen; it just means that for whatever reason the devs didn't think it was a consideration. Fairly stupid if you ask me, but then nobody did.

Nope, Incompetence doesn't work. You can use my house-rule Inept flaw if you like, but Incompetence as written doesn't allw you any ranks in the skill at all, ever.