Thanks in advance,




- Baatorian

Didn't realize I did. However, please be assured that I give that attitude to lots of people, I would never single you out specifically to give you a hard time.

No problem.

I read over your site last night actually while searching DS for any and all posts on ghouls, to see if anything had already been made to attempt to make them a little more playable.

I'd comment on what I read, but it was late and I wasn't in the best of moods and therefore have forgotten whatever I read.





- Baatorian

Edit : Oh I remember. Shiawise (SP) MAYBE having a cure for ghouls. A very important piece of information that.

It was late, we just went off the Shadowrun Companion. I find the information in there a little lacking, but it doesn't say there are any effects in the first month.

Ghouls being able to view astral space (permanently) without being a magician is not a good thing, it's a very, very bad thing. Instant death from any astral mage whenever they feel like it and there's absolutely nothing you can do. At least you can attempt to fend off astral spirits/elementals. Wards/barriers/background count, lets not go there.

Roleplaying, not really worth going there to be honest, I am talking about the actual statistic and balance here. If I did go there, I'd only end up bringing up the whole "character" thing again. Sure, some PCs can survive, but some can't.

Imagine that face. Ouch.




- Baatorian

That is seriously teh suck. As a GM, I've always been a little annoyed at how easily the shaman in our group trounces ghoul packs; I guess that being on the receiving end would be a major pain. I'll take another look at your proposed changes and give them some serious thought befre I reply.

While I agree with most everything else you said, this isn't entirely accurate: ghouls also have a hard time distinguishing similar colours or understanding anything displayed on a computer screen more than a few feet from their face (including icons and images) which can be a real pain.

Perhaps I'm being anal, but there really is more to their blindness than just illiteracy.

I think the OP is running a SR3 game...

Given.

Good point and well said.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that colours are not perceptible on the Astral Plane. Remember, we do not see in Astral Space, we simply use visual metaphors to describe astral perception because it's easier for our monkeybrains to comprehend.

See, that's the trap that the authors of the shadowrun companion fell into when they put in those foolish rules in the first place. The goal is not to create a "ghoul-lite" that is so inoffensive that you don't mind letting players staple it to their characters. The goal should be to make rules that charge enough BPs that players will purchase Ghoulishness if and only if it fits their character concept with the actual (and large) bonuses that Ghouls are supposed to have.

So, using SR3 terminology, a Ghoul's stat bonuses are +10, which compares quite favorably to a Dwarf's +4. Of course, while they are sitting 12 BPs in the black over what a Dwarf gets, they also have a number of drawbacks as well. More points worth of flaws than many GMs will allow a player to start with.

So a Ghoul has more Willpower than any other race, and coincidentally also has a Mild Allergy to Sunlight - so obviously we should start off with a comparison to an Albino Dwarf. That means that you are 1 Strength, 3 Body, 2 Quickness, and 1 Intelligence in the black, but 2 Charisma in the hole. So we have to consider the value of:

* Dual Natured. This is rather large flaw in some cases, but in this case you actually need it to have a targetting sense, so I'll call this a wash.

* Claws. These are virtually meaningless. The SR3 claws are so craptacular, and weapons with reach so astoundingly awesome, that most ghoul characters will probably never use these. I'll call this "flavor" and price it at zero.

* Enhanced Senses: Hearing and Smell. These are pretty decent, and probably worth as much individually as the extra attibute points.

* Blind. These guys are Awakened by defintion. They don't even suffer penalties while Astrally Percepting. So I'd call this a -2 Flaw.

* Police Record. This is a -6 Flaw. Sure, they might not have a Police Record, but the effect is much the same in much of the world.

* Dietary Requirement: Metahuman Flesh. This is the equivalent of the -1 Flaw where you have expensive tastes, and the -2 flaw where you have a dark secret at the same time. This is a -3 Flaw when put together.

* Distinctive Style. This -1 Flaw is easily subsumed in your putrid sweat and horrifying appearance. You might even want to throw in the "Ugly and Doesn't Care" flaw on top of that for an additional -1.

So before we even get to the whole question of "How much is a point of Essence worth to you, chummer?", a Ghoul is staring at 12 points of Flaws and 14 points of bonuses over an Albino Dwarf. In fact, being Dual Natured is supposedly a -5 Flaw, so by the book a Ghoul is at least 3 points in the hole.

But you also get to walk away with a noticably higher run multiplier.

So by the book, it looks like a Ghoul, when compared to an Albino Dwarf, should cost about 5 Build Points.

-Frank

Mmmmmm...Take troll, add krieger, make serviteur, possess with petro loa, crunchy evil fun!

[edit]...although, with the charisma penalty when you turn, there's pretty good odds that a PC will become a cha < 1 NPC.

I do like the SR4 interpretation of regen better though. Still pretty tough, works vs stun damage, but not invincible, and works for PCs and NPCs.

The biggest problem with shifters though, was that they had to split their stats. Add on to that them having to go magical so they could get masking (since they all had bounties on their heads), and you had no points left to spend on anything else.

Absolutely. Which is why I've always suspected a link between the fact that the idea that ghouls could have another metatype at the same time came out simultaneously with the idea that player characters could become ghouls.

I'm pretty sure it went like this:

Player: "I want my Troll to become a Ghoul, the rules say that Ghouls are goblinized humans or metahumans, I'm a metahuman, I want to goblinize!"

GM: "Uh... OK."

Aftwerwards, game balance flew striaght into a wall, and new special rules were made to make player character Ghouls get reamed.

---

It seems way easier to eliminate the middleman and go back to the way things were: if you goblinize into something, that's the only thing you are. There are no Orkish Trolls, there shouldn't be any Ghoulish Trolls either. The one-upsmanship with PCs getting Ghoul mods stapled to advanced metahuman characters followed by a nerfing of Ghouls so harsh that players wouldn't even want it any more is just silly.

Yes. Noone seems put off by the fact that we don't let people play Great Dragons, Banshee, Corporate CEOs, Toxics, or Free Spirits. There are lots of things in the Shadowrun universe which for one reason or another are simply off limits for PCs. But on the other hand, if something is within the power scale of a player character, it should probably be available. It really is very easy: charge appropriate amounts for a character type, or ban it outright if appropriate costs cannot be made. Don't half-ass it.

Allowing players to play nerfed versions of things from the Shadowrun universe is worse than not letting them play those things at all. The player knows that he's not getting the real deal, so the desire to play that thing is essentially unfulfilled. And nine times out of ten you end up jerking the player around, meaning that the whole team suffers.

-Frank

I really wouldn't call this a wash at all. The biggest problem with dual-natured is that it creates a balancing problem with your Awakened characters. See, without a ghoul in your party it's easy to add wards, background count, patrolling spirits etc. that affect the mages more than the mundanes. Once that ghoul is added, however, every ward you add is one deterent your initiate mage can deal with, but your ghoul never will be able to. Background count will affect the ghoul more than the mage; spirits will have an easier time beating up on the ghoul than the mage; etc etc. Dual-natured is a huge headache waiting to happen.

Personally I'd rather change Dual-Natured to the Astral Sight Edge. That would be more of a wash IMO; they can disappear off the astral if they want, but at the cost of becoming completely unable to target anything.

The idea, AFAIK, was first floated in Bug City, right along with the first-ever rule or indication that people could become infected with ghoulishness. How people managed to go the first 50+ years of the Awakening without noticing this is beyond understanding.

-Frank

That's great, but in 1st and 2nd edition they were goblinized, which meant that the original metatype was gone, and exposure to other ghouls made no difference as to whether you transformed yourself.

-Frank

People managed to go 20 years or so without noticing that hetrosexuals could contact HIV. Even the medical community to subject to basic prejudices. Whith an event as far reaching as the awakening, it is a small miracle that anyone knows about HMHVV at all.