So how much karma and money are you awarding for a typical (1 session) run?
How much for longer runs over multiple sessions?
Full Version: Karma and money
In comparison with what the rules say, my experience system is way too generous.
I don't use karma because I don't like the scaling problems. If character creation used karma instead of build points, I'd use it, but I'd rather it just be one system. So I use build points.
After a four-hour session, I gave everyone 10 BP plus a few for cool descriptions, humor, and other stuff. Ended up being an average of 12 each, so they got like 3 skill points or one attribute point for the game.
I did it because I want to start with a low game (330 BP or so) and after a long series of sessions, I think the players should advance to at least average (400 BP) and perhaps into the "epic" arena (500+?).
Plus total BP is an easy way to gauge character power relative to each other, I think.
EDIT: Oh yah, forgot. I played the "Food Fight" module of First Run, so I gave them each 5000n (ran out of time so I didn't want everyone writing a thousand different items with a thousand different prices and a thousand different rolls) because they stayed around to steal the weapons of the robbers, plus grab some loot off the shelves. Damn evil characters.
I don't use karma because I don't like the scaling problems. If character creation used karma instead of build points, I'd use it, but I'd rather it just be one system. So I use build points.
After a four-hour session, I gave everyone 10 BP plus a few for cool descriptions, humor, and other stuff. Ended up being an average of 12 each, so they got like 3 skill points or one attribute point for the game.
I did it because I want to start with a low game (330 BP or so) and after a long series of sessions, I think the players should advance to at least average (400 BP) and perhaps into the "epic" arena (500+?).
Plus total BP is an easy way to gauge character power relative to each other, I think.
EDIT: Oh yah, forgot. I played the "Food Fight" module of First Run, so I gave them each 5000n (ran out of time so I didn't want everyone writing a thousand different items with a thousand different prices and a thousand different rolls) because they stayed around to steal the weapons of the robbers, plus grab some loot off the shelves. Damn evil characters.
I'm doing much the same, although I hand out more like 2-4 BPs per session than 10-14. As for 
- that's a tougher question. It varies substantially depending upon the kind of work the players are doing andwho they are doing it for.
A good fallback is that in the world people should be making more performing crimes than they would at a standard "honest" job. A real spellcaster, for instance, rolls 6 or more dice on talismongering tests, and can thus come up with about 2 units of ritual components per day (or about 1000 ). That means that a mage is coming out with about 230,000 each year (assuming a five day work week and six weeks of vacation).
So if the runners do two jobs each month, they should be taking home about 20k, each. That is, of course, once they've paid their dues. Jobs taken when the PCs don't yet have decent contacts to get them work can often pay a tenth of that.
-Frank
- that's a tougher question. It varies substantially depending upon the kind of work the players are doing andwho they are doing it for.A good fallback is that in the world people should be making more performing crimes than they would at a standard "honest" job. A real spellcaster, for instance, rolls 6 or more dice on talismongering tests, and can thus come up with about 2 units of ritual components per day (or about 1000
). That means that a mage is coming out with about 230,000 each year (assuming a five day work week and six weeks of vacation).So if the runners do two jobs each month, they should be taking home about 20k, each. That is, of course, once they've paid their dues. Jobs taken when the PCs don't yet have decent contacts to get them work can often pay a tenth of that.
-Frank
| QUOTE |
| I'd rather it just be one system. |
I hear you there. They should use Karma for character generation.
As for the money, our primary GM was very stingy with Karma and money (more stingy with the Karma). Often I thought the few thousand nuyen we were sometimes paid was not worth what we were invariably up against (small armies). The money did not even pay for the wrecked equipment and stuff we paid for out-of-pocket to complete the run.
Maybe we didn't pay our dues . . . Sometimes the opposing army killed one of us and we ended up fleeing. We never really made a name for ourselves, you know. So the next run usually paid about 2,000
each. It just never made sense to me that people would break into a compound and take machine gun fire for just barely enough money to live a low lifestyle. But we always took the jobs because it wouldn't be much of a game if we said no.Heh, and to add insult to injury we had a "million-dollar-man" rigger that had tons of money and a high lifestyle in the group. He would always point his guns at me every time I asked the GM about looting valuable equipment. Something about ethics . . . Hmm, how did he know what I was thinking? My astral perception let me know he wasn't casting any detection spells. I wonder why that guy would accept such small amounts of money. Must be the 0.1 Essense . . .
Anyway, to get back on-topic, the money should be in line with the job. Early on it should be a pittance. Later, it should get pretty big if the jobs are big. Plus, looting should be a major wildcard.
The typical rule of thumb is to pay out nuyen equal to the sum of [one month of rent cost for their] lifestyles for an average mission. After that, it's usually up for the players to negociate more out of the Johnson.
As for karma, there's rules for giving out 1 or 2 karma per game (plus more for individual achievements), but I come from a group of powergaming D&Ders who would emit a resounding "WTF?" if they only got 2 karma points to spend after a day-long marathon session.
As for karma, there's rules for giving out 1 or 2 karma per game (plus more for individual achievements), but I come from a group of powergaming D&Ders who would emit a resounding "WTF?" if they only got 2 karma points to spend after a day-long marathon session.
Right now I'm giving at least 4 karma and ~5,000 cash each per mission. We are all still learning the system so this leaves them with enough karma to adjust skills and to look forward to attribute increases. It seems to work very well with this group.
Any additional cash has to be looted from the enemies, mostly in the form of hardware (guns, commlinks and such), and extra karma is awarded if the player is funny, help kept the mission moving (versus doing stupid crap just to slow down the game), and were able to from killing people needlessly. (Alot of gel rounds, flash-bangs and shock equipment being used right now.)
Any additional cash has to be looted from the enemies, mostly in the form of hardware (guns, commlinks and such), and extra karma is awarded if the player is funny, help kept the mission moving (versus doing stupid crap just to slow down the game), and were able to from killing people needlessly. (Alot of gel rounds, flash-bangs and shock equipment being used right now.)
| QUOTE (Dragonscript) |
| Right now I'm giving at least 4 karma and ~5,000 cash each per mission. We are all still learning the system so this leaves them with enough karma to adjust skills and to look forward to attribute increases. It seems to work very well with this group. |
5000 each, or for the whole team to split?
I generally do around 5 Karma for "short" adventure arcs (usually 1-3 game sessions), and upwards of 10 or so for longer or more dangerous/involved story arcs (usually 2-5 sessions).
Money varies greatly, and depends on both the adventure I have laid out and how much money the players are currently sitting on
If they're broke, I'll be a little more generous. if they're flush with cash, I'm stingy unless it's a nasty, nasty run. With SR4, generally 2-5K per character will be a normal run.
Bull
Money varies greatly, and depends on both the adventure I have laid out and how much money the players are currently sitting on
If they're broke, I'll be a little more generous. if they're flush with cash, I'm stingy unless it's a nasty, nasty run. With SR4, generally 2-5K per character will be a normal run.Bull
| QUOTE (Lebo77) | ||
5000 each, or for the whole team to split? |
Each. I highly "encouraged" them to take the middle lifestyle and this is the monthly cost for it. So basically the mission pays the bills for the month and the loot gets them all the extras they want.
I'm hesistant to have my NPCs award paychecks based on the number of runners present. Three reasons:
1) If I'm a Johnson intending to pay 5k per person, and I'm looking across the table at 6 expectant faces, then the cost of my sneaky subcontracting is 30k. I offer that, and then I might hear "Oh, there are actually 8 of us. We have a hacker virtually present and a mage astrally present. Please give us 40k. Wait, no... we might have another guy show up later, so..."
2) If I'm a Johnson with a job lined up, then I realistically have a budget that I'm willing to spend on runners. If the job is worth X nuyen in profit to me, then naturally I'm not willing to spend more than a (probably small) fraction of X on hiring these mercenary punks.
3) If I offer a lump sum to the team, then it becomes their responsibility to split it up as they see fit; not mine. If Bob the Slacker Hacker didn't do anything the whole run except for look at simporn, then I'd think the team might have objections to paying him in full. Likewise team expenses might cut into the lump sum first, then the remainder can get divided up as appropriate.
That said, I like to keep an eye on the size and perceived in-game effectiveness (read: "Street Cred") of the team when I come up with missions. Right now my group consists of nine (well-behaved adult) players and their jobs have to be proportionately difficult and rewarding.
The "5k per runner per month" ballpark is good for me, adjusted arbitrarily for Street Cred.
1) If I'm a Johnson intending to pay 5k per person, and I'm looking across the table at 6 expectant faces, then the cost of my sneaky subcontracting is 30k. I offer that, and then I might hear "Oh, there are actually 8 of us. We have a hacker virtually present and a mage astrally present. Please give us 40k. Wait, no... we might have another guy show up later, so..."
2) If I'm a Johnson with a job lined up, then I realistically have a budget that I'm willing to spend on runners. If the job is worth X nuyen in profit to me, then naturally I'm not willing to spend more than a (probably small) fraction of X on hiring these mercenary punks.
3) If I offer a lump sum to the team, then it becomes their responsibility to split it up as they see fit; not mine. If Bob the Slacker Hacker didn't do anything the whole run except for look at simporn, then I'd think the team might have objections to paying him in full. Likewise team expenses might cut into the lump sum first, then the remainder can get divided up as appropriate.
That said, I like to keep an eye on the size and perceived in-game effectiveness (read: "Street Cred") of the team when I come up with missions. Right now my group consists of nine (well-behaved adult) players and their jobs have to be proportionately difficult and rewarding.
The "5k per runner per month" ballpark is good for me, adjusted arbitrarily for Street Cred.
| QUOTE (Dragonscript) |
| Each. I highly "encouraged" them to take the middle lifestyle and this is the monthly cost for it. So basically the mission pays the bills for the month and the loot gets them all the extras they want. |
Do you attempt to put any control on loot? That seems to be the part that can vary wildly. One stolen Westwind, or set of bioware, can make a samurai.
After you get through the fencing markdowns, and the work it would take to scrub all the secure tags on the Westwind, the profit margin isn't that much. But i do agree if you try to control cash too much and you have remotely creative players you will either fail or your game will start to look like two steel rails running in parallel. 
| QUOTE (Clay Pigeon) | ||
Do you attempt to put any control on loot? That seems to be the part that can vary wildly. One stolen Westwind, or set of bioware, can make a samurai. |
On loot i tend to be very flexible. Last adventure they each got paid 2500, plus a 2000 bonus for getting the job done fast. For look they took all the weapons off the security guys, emptied the arms locker, which was a couple ak-97s and some clips, the comm links off of security and they were going to steal some missiles and drones but they didn't have the space nor the time, lone star was about to show up, so they just blew everything up.
They kept some of the guns, which i charged a small fee to have "sanitized".
They sold a few guns for 50% of the value, and most of the guns had a few accessories so they got a decent amount of coin for them.
The hacker didn't want to mess with the commlinks so he just formatted them and sold the hardware for 50% value.
50% resale value is standard in all my games to keep the game flowing, unless the players want to use a skill to get a different amount.
Finances and gear should be considered very liquid assets in Shadowrun, as new stolen/purchased items flow in and disposable/destroyed items flow out of the team's possession. Money isn't anywhere near as important to keep track of as long as the game setting's inherent checks and balances are observed.
Just be mindful -- as both a player and GM -- of how hard it is to fence stolen (especially hot) loot, how hard it is to cart off hundreds of kilograms of "distressed" security armor & weaponry, and how paranoid corps can get with RFID tagging their company property.
Just be mindful -- as both a player and GM -- of how hard it is to fence stolen (especially hot) loot, how hard it is to cart off hundreds of kilograms of "distressed" security armor & weaponry, and how paranoid corps can get with RFID tagging their company property.
left the drones behind? what were they thinking? hack the dang things, and make them carry the missiles out for you! you don't need space, and it shouldn't take that long either...
The group i'm playing with right now has never played shadowrun before so i'm breaking them into it slowly.
Azralon,
Those three reasons are great insights. Your third reason is my personal favorite. One would think that the contact pays the face character, just like in the movies.
As for the "Oh, we have a big team so pay us that much more . . ." problem, use your personal knowledge of the gaming group as a cap for how much money can be squeezed out of the Johnson. I think about that when I create the opposition the runners will encounter, so it is only fair that the compensation be in line with that too. The same works for your second reason.
Those three reasons are great insights. Your third reason is my personal favorite. One would think that the contact pays the face character, just like in the movies.
As for the "Oh, we have a big team so pay us that much more . . ." problem, use your personal knowledge of the gaming group as a cap for how much money can be squeezed out of the Johnson. I think about that when I create the opposition the runners will encounter, so it is only fair that the compensation be in line with that too. The same works for your second reason.
For small runs: 1 karma for surviving, 1 for completion, and 4-8k totall
For large runs: 1 karma for surviging, 1 per completion of secondary goals, and 2 for primary goal. around 20k. Mr J refuses to negotiate on a ¥/person scale, and tries to talk them into chems, corp script, or company catalog whenever possible.
For large runs: 1 karma for surviging, 1 per completion of secondary goals, and 2 for primary goal. around 20k. Mr J refuses to negotiate on a ¥/person scale, and tries to talk them into chems, corp script, or company catalog whenever possible.
The jobs are no milk runs, done by veterans, include extended travel and gear wearout... to stop to loot would be, in most cases, suicide on the long run... so the award is 4-6 Karma, and 100-300K¥ the Team, paid in a fashion hard to trace back.
| QUOTE (Dragonscript) |
| 50% resale value is standard in all my games to keep the game flowing, unless the players want to use a skill to get a different amount. |
50% is a very high number for resale of used items. Think how much money you would expect to get if you were to sell a car to a used car dealership... how about a stolen car?
People who sell stuff for a living can normally get it new at wholesale price - around 50% retail. They'll also sell used items for whatever the market will pay, frequently around 50% retail. In order for dealing in used items to really be worth it, a seller will want to get a better margin on used goods than he gets on new goods. I'd say the high price for selling used stuff to someone who plans on reselling it is 20% retail. If the item is probably stolen, or you don't have an ID, you'll get even less.
The factor that will push the resale price back up is rarity in the market. In Shadowrun, this is part of what Availability covers. For high availability items (8+), you'll probably get a somewhat better price because the item may not be available new in the market. On the other hand, lack of supply actually reduces demand because people think they won't be able to find it.
Directly reselling to end users is annoying. If you can personally find someone who wants it, awesome. If you ask a reseller to find you a buyer, they'll be like "Just sell it to me and I'll deal with it". The other major option is online auctions, and there legality comes into play. If you have access to something like a Shadowland online auction site, you'll probably end up getting prices about halfway between a sale to an end user and a sale to a reseller.
In conclusion, I'll probably be using the following in my games.
New, in shrink wrap, resale to end user - 60%
Used, resale to end user - 40%
New, in shink wrap, resale to reseller - 40%
Used, resale to reseller - 20%
Suspected stolen goods - 1/2 to 3/4ths what you would otherwise get.
Very high availability - Judgement call, potentially as high as 200% retail, but really depending on who the buyer is and how badly the want it.
The least I've given out for karma for a session is 2. The most I've given out for a multi-part session/adventure is 9.
The least I've given out in cash (per person) is 1k. The largest 14k. Really, I don't think that karma or cash should be proportional to anything except the type and difficulty of the run.
I'm probably a little generous with karma and cash, but if I am, I'm not game-breakingly so. My reward style works out well with the players I have, given that they're all smart, mature, highly capable role-players who don't aim to twink out so hard that they shimmer.
I giggled when one of the players on the 14k run just turned around and bought himself a Mercury Comet. That shit was awesome.
The least I've given out in cash (per person) is 1k. The largest 14k. Really, I don't think that karma or cash should be proportional to anything except the type and difficulty of the run.
I'm probably a little generous with karma and cash, but if I am, I'm not game-breakingly so. My reward style works out well with the players I have, given that they're all smart, mature, highly capable role-players who don't aim to twink out so hard that they shimmer.
I giggled when one of the players on the 14k run just turned around and bought himself a Mercury Comet. That shit was awesome.
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