Full Version: Background Count
Have you implemented background count in your games at all? I'm looking for opinions on how it should be done. Should it add its rating to drain? Subtract from magic dice? Add to threshold?
i would cause it to subtract hits, personally.
of course, that makes background count really, really painful, but that's how i'd do it.
of course, that makes background count really, really painful, but that's how i'd do it.
Rating of background count temporarily subtracts from Magic Rating. This means that adepts have fewer powers (and you should have all adepts tier their powers in case this happens so you know what they lose first, second, etc). Mages will throw fewer Magic Attribute dice to throw into spells and summoning and such. Summoning and casting will have problems with physical Drain at lower Force spirits/spells.
If the background is very high or your Magic attribute is vey low you may temporarily become a mundane, but you don't lose your skills so the moment you leave the high-background area you get your Magic back and everything's fine.
One thing this method has going for it is it actually affects adepts as well as mages. One thing I really disliked about SR3 is that background count did nothing to adepts until you were in mana warp territory.
If the background is very high or your Magic attribute is vey low you may temporarily become a mundane, but you don't lose your skills so the moment you leave the high-background area you get your Magic back and everything's fine.
One thing this method has going for it is it actually affects adepts as well as mages. One thing I really disliked about SR3 is that background count did nothing to adepts until you were in mana warp territory.
We simply apply a negative dice modifier (i.e. subtract dice) for magic-related tests, including drain and Assensing, equal to the level of the background count. It balances out quite well, causing a significant hit against a mage's ability to cast or perceive astrally. Subtracting hits is a bit too harsh, and isn't an SR4 mechanic (SR4 adds/subtracts dice for Opposed/Success tests and raises/lowers thresholds for Threshold tests). Lowering Magic Rating is essentially making a brand new house rule that isn't based in the effects of previous editions.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| We simply apply a negative dice modifier (i.e. subtract dice) for magic-related tests, including drain and Assensing, equal to the level of the background count. |
I really don't think it should affect Drain Resistance. I like the idea of decreasing Magic based on BC.
I don't think it makes sense to lower magic - background count isn't a null magic zone. Not at all. In fact, some creatures/types of magic LIKE it.
I think it should subtract dice from casting, assensing, ANYTHING astral (including astral combat), summoning, binding, and probably drain resistance.
It shouldnt' do anything to adepts. Adepts don't access the Astral. Background Count is a PURELY astral phenomenon. If it affects non-percieving adepts, then it should also reduce things from Mundanes, and that makes NO sense whatsoever.
I think it should subtract dice from casting, assensing, ANYTHING astral (including astral combat), summoning, binding, and probably drain resistance.
It shouldnt' do anything to adepts. Adepts don't access the Astral. Background Count is a PURELY astral phenomenon. If it affects non-percieving adepts, then it should also reduce things from Mundanes, and that makes NO sense whatsoever.
Decreasing Magic rating works well and plays into the way I imagine it happening. I always though of the "mana level" not really being an amount at all but merely a ratio of "stable to unstable" mana.
On the flip side, I'm not sure how to handle a place of high magical power or mana flux that would give an equal bonus and penalty to both types.
On the flip side, I'm not sure how to handle a place of high magical power or mana flux that would give an equal bonus and penalty to both types.
Whatever Background Count does to Joe Schmoe, it has to be able to do the opposite to creatures aspected for that background type. So subtracting hits is a no-go, because that would mean that toxics get bonus hits while standing in mercury baths.
I suggest that a background count should be added/subtracted from the force of spirits and spells for the purpose of reducing services and drain. So if you are in a Toxic Count of 2, you would cast a Force 3 spell and it would drain like a Force 5 spell - unless you were a Toxic Threat yourself, in which case it would drain like a force 1.
This way characters end up limiting themselves in the amount of success their magic can deliver unless they want to open themselves to serious pain. The SR4 mechanic of Force acting as a cap for successes means that you don't need to do anything else to the character's ability to get hits. That's already taken care of. Each player then has the option of getting less usable hits or worse drain (or some combination), and it ports over seamlessly to the magical threats who are affected in the opposite fashion.
-Frank
I suggest that a background count should be added/subtracted from the force of spirits and spells for the purpose of reducing services and drain. So if you are in a Toxic Count of 2, you would cast a Force 3 spell and it would drain like a Force 5 spell - unless you were a Toxic Threat yourself, in which case it would drain like a force 1.
This way characters end up limiting themselves in the amount of success their magic can deliver unless they want to open themselves to serious pain. The SR4 mechanic of Force acting as a cap for successes means that you don't need to do anything else to the character's ability to get hits. That's already taken care of. Each player then has the option of getting less usable hits or worse drain (or some combination), and it ports over seamlessly to the magical threats who are affected in the opposite fashion.
-Frank
An interesting idea. What happens when a sustained spell or someone/something sustaining or a Summoned spirit enter a Background Count? Does the Force of the spell drop, or rise? Temporarily? If so i think that resolves a question of casting/conjuring on the outside and the coming in. Also what happens if the BC is equal to or higher than the level of the spell/spirit, is it effectively suppressed while in the BC? Can the spirit still act to get out of the BC because all it's mental and some physical Attributes are now at zero, or less, and that normally means paralysis in SR?
However i still think you'd need to give a dice penalty to any action of a dual nature or astral creature acting in, or into the toxic domain. Asensing, Astral Combat, etc. is obvious. But for example an astrally perceiving Adept outside the background count shoots a gun from a distance at a toxic shaman inside the background count. The Adept suffers a die penalty equal to the background count. Now would the toxic shaman get bonus out? Hrmmm, i'd be inclined to say it would be based on the lest favorable conditions along the path of action, so no.
Now would the penalties also apply to the rolls for Spellcasting and Summoning (and Drain) giving a double whammy to magicians? Spirits, who already suffered -2*BC dice to every roll because of how their Skills and Attributes are determined, would take another hit too. So effectively Spirits would be suffering -3*BC die penalty on every action. Or alternatively the toxic spirit would be effectively getting +3*BC die on every action.
Messing with the toxic spirit in it's own domain would be down right scary!
Note: I don't think the "into" is ever addressed in previous canon. I'm not sure about the sustained spell being brought in. I do believe that previously spirits had their effective force reduced though.
However i still think you'd need to give a dice penalty to any action of a dual nature or astral creature acting in, or into the toxic domain. Asensing, Astral Combat, etc. is obvious. But for example an astrally perceiving Adept outside the background count shoots a gun from a distance at a toxic shaman inside the background count. The Adept suffers a die penalty equal to the background count. Now would the toxic shaman get bonus out? Hrmmm, i'd be inclined to say it would be based on the lest favorable conditions along the path of action, so no.
Now would the penalties also apply to the rolls for Spellcasting and Summoning (and Drain) giving a double whammy to magicians? Spirits, who already suffered -2*BC dice to every roll because of how their Skills and Attributes are determined, would take another hit too. So effectively Spirits would be suffering -3*BC die penalty on every action. Or alternatively the toxic spirit would be effectively getting +3*BC die on every action.
Messing with the toxic spirit in it's own domain would be down right scary!Note: I don't think the "into" is ever addressed in previous canon. I'm not sure about the sustained spell being brought in. I do believe that previously spirits had their effective force reduced though.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I really don't think it should affect Drain Resistance. I like the idea of decreasing Magic based on BC. |
Why not? It affected Drain Resistance in previous editions (3rd edition was a bit kinder than 2nd edition, if I remember correctly). I'm not bashing you, I'm just curious.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||
Why not? It affected Drain Resistance in previous editions (3rd edition was a bit kinder than 2nd edition, if I remember correctly). I'm not bashing you, I'm just curious. |
Previous editions have little to do with it, as so many things have changed anyway.
I think it should definitely be harder for the awakened character to access Magic, but I don't see why it should be harder to resist the Drain once they do actually manage to utilize it. If the BC reduced Magic (in some way), and a Mage casts a spell at a specific Force, he is still resisting Drain at that Force, even though his spell will more than likely be less effective.
I also don't really like the idea of the reverse, where a beneficial BC makes Drain easier. Spellcasting (or Magic) should be more effective for the same Force, but not necessarily easier to manipulate Drain-free.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Spellcasting (or Magic) should be more effective for the same Force, but not necessarily easier to manipulate Drain-free. |
Um... that's the same thing though. If spells are more effective at force X, then they'll be as effective at Force X at some force less than X. So a character can achieve the same level of success with a lower force, and subsequently less drain.
Since SR4 doesn't meaningfully limit the force that a character can throw their spells at, it really doesn't matter which end of the success/drain end you attack. If a Force 3 spell drains like a Force 5, then a character who thought they could stand drain from a 5 would cast at Force 3 and get less successes. If a Force 5 spell gets less hits and hits like a Force 3 spell... well that really isn't any different on the back end, is it? In either case, the character suffers the most drain they think they can afford (normal drain for a Force 5) and they get lesser effects on the back end.
So if Background Counts penalize your drain, people will cast at lower force. If BC penalizes your success, people will cast asif they had lower forces. And if BC affects both, people will cast at lower forces that in turn act as if they were even lower forces. But the net result is all the same, so you might as well pick one thing that is easy to handle, and smoothely scales all the way to "Mana Warp" (where attempting to cast magic at all rips your soul right out of your body and drives you insane if it doesn't kill you outright).
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| What happens when a sustained spell or someone/something sustaining or a Summoned spirit enter a Background Count? |
That's a good question. The old answer, of course, was "the GM has the option of screwing with you at this point". There were no hard and fast rules for bringing sustained spells into backgrounds counts doing anything bad (except for Manawarps), but if you brought your spirits into a Toxic zone, they would turn on you "sometimes".
Temporary Force Reductions could handle the manawarp effect pretty smoothely. You walk into a BC of 10 and all your spells evaporate. Similarly, bringing Spirits into background counts could immediately give them extra dice to reduce their services, with a result of freedom being contingent upon the background count. That way it would keep the old flavor of nature spirits going into Toxic areas and going nutzo without being overly complicated.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| Um... that's the same thing though. If spells are more effective at force X, then they'll be as effective at Force X at some force less than X. So a character can achieve the same level of success with a lower force, and subsequently less drain. Since SR4 doesn't meaningfully limit the force that a character can throw their spells at, it really doesn't matter which end of the success/drain end you attack. If a Force 3 spell drains like a Force 5, then a character who thought they could stand drain from a 5 would cast at Force 3 and get less successes. If a Force 5 spell gets less hits and hits like a Force 3 spell... well that really isn't any different on the back end, is it? In either case, the character suffers the most drain they think they can afford (normal drain for a Force 5) and they get lesser effects on the back end. So if Background Counts penalize your drain, people will cast at lower force. If BC penalizes your success, people will cast asif they had lower forces. And if BC affects both, people will cast at lower forces that in turn act as if they were even lower forces. But the net result is all the same, so you might as well pick one thing that is easy to handle, and smoothely scales all the way to "Mana Warp" (where attempting to cast magic at all rips your soul right out of your body and drives you insane if it doesn't kill you outright). |
Picking one is exactly what I am advocating. Instead of BC affecting Magic and Drain directly, I prefer it to just affect the Magic (or alternately Force of Spells/Spirits) itself.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 16 2005, 02:47 AM) |
| Since SR4 doesn't meaningfully limit the force that a character can throw their spells at, it really doesn't matter which end of the success/drain end you attack. |
I don't find that particularly true. Overcasting Stunbolt is much more common now, right up to with 2 or 3 points when just dealing with those 1 step up from "mook", and drain is still fairly insignificant at that point too (though Physical). If you keep background counts similar they don't enter Warp territory until BC 6, right? So in fact you are going to hit the ceiling of drain for some spells much sooner than.
Your idea has some merits, and handles some things well. But it certainly takes away a lot of the "rips your soul out if you cast in a Warp" aspect. Especially since you can control it a lot better than something like adding the BC to the drain DV (edit: or adding Physical Drain boxes equal to BC, even if the normal Drain is Stun, each hit on the drain test reducing a box from either Stun or Physical)
P.S. It just occured to me there is the issue of spells like Heal that are always cast full out. What does reducing the effective Force of the spell look like there?
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| P.S. It just occured to me there is the issue of spells like Heal that are always cast full out. What does reducing the effective Force of the spell look like there? |
Well ALL spell's maximum hits are limited to the force of the spell. So if you want to cast a force 1 heal spell, you only get to count 1 hit towards healing the subject
| QUOTE (NightRain @ Oct 15 2005, 05:37 PM) | ||
Well ALL spell's maximum hits are limited to the force of the spell. So if you want to cast a force 1 heal spell, you only get to count 1 hit towards healing the subject |
From my reading Heal sets your Drain DV is the boxes of damage that the target/subject has, and the caster cannot choose to limit that. Although i guess whether the castor chooses to cast at Force=Magic x 2 or just Force=Magic changes it from Physical to Stun. So casters with a Magic of 6 actually do have something of a choice to make when faced with BC 3 up to Warp . But after a BC of 1 or 2 a Magic 4 caster might as well be casting in a Warp as far as Drain is concerned (not that he'll be doing much casting anyway).
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