So, a question. On page 73 of the BBB, it says:
Full Version: Character Generation Attribute Cap
| QUOTE |
| Players may not spend more than half their total BP on Physical and Mental attributes (for a standard 400 BP character, this means a cap of 200 BP). |
Now, something occured to me. It says "Total BP". Does "Total BP" mean 400? Or, if you have, say, 20 points of negative qualities, does it mean 420? Because if so, that means you could spend just a -wee- bit more on stats. (not MUCH more, but a little)
Good Question. I would imagine it's your base total before it was adjusted with qualities, but you could get a good idiot savant build out of it if it were the other way.
If a player came up to me and argued that i'd just nod and then smile when they turned their back because watching a rules lawyer screw themselves over is funny. 
Basically it is generally a bad idea to blow your full 50% to start with, and to boot you also aren't getting any Positive Qualities....right? 
But other than that small bit of guilty pleasure, no i wouldn't agree that it allowed you extra BP for Attributes.
Basically it is generally a bad idea to blow your full 50% to start with, and to boot you also aren't getting any Positive Qualities....right? But other than that small bit of guilty pleasure, no i wouldn't agree that it allowed you extra BP for Attributes.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| If a player came up to me and argued that i'd just nod and then smile when they turned their back because watching a rules lawyer screw themselves over is funny. Basically it is generally a bad idea to blow your full 50% to start with, and to boot you also aren't getting any Positive Qualities....right? But other than that small bit of guilty pleasure, no i wouldn't agree that it allowed you extra BP for Attributes. |
Actually, I fail to see why it's a bad thing to blow 50% on attributes. Since, you know, they're used on every test, and stuff.
blakkie's thinking in terms of character advancement, where attributes are comparatively cheaper to raise than (and paradoxically are better than) skill groups, yet cost the same at chargen. Of course considering how damn much Karma it costs to do anything, and how little you're supposed to get by the RAW, it's a bit irrelevant.
| QUOTE (Gothic Rose @ Oct 19 2005, 04:52 PM) |
| Actually, I fail to see why it's a bad thing to blow 50% on attributes. Since, you know, they're used on every test, and stuff. |
It is more cost effective to buy Attributes rather than Skills after chargen, and Skills count too.
If you put the full 200 into your core 8 by the time you then buy some Edge, get at least a bit of gear, some 'ware, and maybe even a Contact if you are feeling extravagent you'll have very few BP left for a good skill set. Yes you could buy up only a couple of Skills and default on the rest, or just a few 1's and perhaps 2's. But SR loves a specialist, and only 1's and 2's is a specialist of nothing. EDIT: On the flipside 1 is the new 6. 1's and 2's in a wide assortment of Skills that you don't intend to advance early on is good. The 1 gets you 2 dice. It's just that without the BP to specialize you don't have that team role.
P.S. Heaven help you if you have a Magic attribute to purchase too, and if you spend more than 40% on stats for a Technomancer? Remember that lame, overused metaphoric "roadkill on the information highway"? Yup, that'll be him.
Add to this that you need to spend 180BP just to become what Canon states is "average" in all your stats, and you can see why some think that 400 BP characters are barely street-level, let alone at the level of a beginner Shadowrunner.
Either that or 3 shouldn't be average for any attribute other than Magic for the Awakened.
Either that or 3 shouldn't be average for any attribute other than Magic for the Awakened.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Either that or 3 shouldn't be average for any attribute other than Magic for the Awakened. |
As i've said before, having all "average" stats makes you above average.
Yes, that is kinda irritating. The SECKSy set up seems to counter this factor a bit, but makes Attributes just a tiny bit more expensive than I'd prefer (x4 is my preferance, but ... eh). Its still more interesting... and since the Excel sheets, its made much easier to work with. **credit plug to those responsible **
Edit: A dice pool of about 5 seems to be average now. So a 2 or 3 is average in a stat or skill, depending, regardless of their "skill chart". The attribute is talent and the skill is training; which amounts to almost the same thing. Not that I'm complaining, thats just how it seems to be.
**Edit: A dice pool of about 5 seems to be average now. So a 2 or 3 is average in a stat or skill, depending, regardless of their "skill chart". The attribute is talent and the skill is training; which amounts to almost the same thing. Not that I'm complaining, thats just how it seems to be.
| QUOTE (Xenith @ Oct 19 2005, 05:33 PM) |
| Yes, that is kinda irritating. |
What is irritating? Trying to understand what is meant by "Average" on that goofy little list? Or people insisting that the game should be reworked to conform to their interpretation of a single word description on a goofy little list?
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
As i've said before, having all "average" stats makes you above average. |
Except they're kinda not... take a look at the NPC stats? The only guys with below-"average" (EG. less than 160-180BP of attributes) are the ganger grunts; even the corporate security grunts have "average" or better-than-average stats.
400 BP is street-level resources, at best.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) | ||||
Except they're kinda not... take a look at the NPC stats? The only guys with below-"average" (EG. less than 160-180BP of attributes) are the ganger grunts; even the corporate security grunts have "average" or better-than-average stats. 400 BP is street-level resources, at best. |
No, i mean by Jane Q. Public standards. I would expect somewhat trained security forces, even so-so ones to be "above average".
P.S. Having a bunch of 3's is just a recipe for blandness anyway. Remember SR loves the specialist, don't be afraid of a few 2's or even perhaps a 1. Weak in some ways, strong is others mean overall strength.
It irritates me they use almost the same description from SR3 in a drastically different set up. It also irritates me that, even at max of 200bp, I get a character that seems a little less than runner material, at least in my eyes. But this is really all opinion anyway.
Edit: And my perceptions are, perhaps, colored by SR3 standards. SR1 and 2 looked to be far more toned down, but I came in during 3rd edition.
Edit: And my perceptions are, perhaps, colored by SR3 standards. SR1 and 2 looked to be far more toned down, but I came in during 3rd edition.
| QUOTE (Xenith @ Oct 19 2005, 06:06 PM) |
| It irritates me they use almost the same description from SR3 in a drastically different set up. |
Yes, copy/paste sucks. Especially when it was a goofy little list where it came from.
| QUOTE |
| It also irritates me that, even at max of 200bp, I get a character that seems a little less than runner material, at least in my eyes. But this is really all opinion anyway. |
Is that actually based on playing him? Because judged by SR3 numbers he is chopped liver. By SR4 numbers not so much. Unless he was built with SR3 in mind. Then he'll be chopped liver in both.
| QUOTE |
| Edit: And my perceptions are, perhaps, colored by SR3 standards. SR1 and 2 looked to be far more toned down, but I came in during 3rd edition. |
They did tone things down some i think. But not a huge amount.
| QUOTE (Xenith @ Oct 19 2005, 08:06 PM) |
| It irritates me they use almost the same description from SR3 in a drastically different set up. It also irritates me that, even at max of 200bp, I get a character that seems a little less than runner material, at least in my eyes. But this is really all opinion anyway. Edit: And my perceptions are, perhaps, colored by SR3 standards. SR1 and 2 looked to be far more toned down, but I came in during 3rd edition. |
A 500 BP newbie (with the corresponding 250 BP attribute cap) is more along the lines of an SR3 newbie, by my reckoning.
These 400 BP dudes are more like "slightly above average people with a few tricks." Not that such a thing is entirely bad, as it leaves you more room to grow once you hit the stage.
As far as I'm concerned a 5 is rather high for a stat in SR4. I'm judging on comparing appreciable effect. A character with some 4s, a 2, and the rest 3s is fine by me, but you have to go to almost max in points to do this, and it hurts the balancing of the character alot. These points should be average for a runner, as far as I'm concerned, with skills they specialized in being at 4 for a group or 5 with a specialization for skills. Runners are experts, are paid as such, and should have stats as such.
I simply would have done it slightly differently. Like I said it irritates me, but not enough to change all that much about it. I like that SECKSy alleviates this while still making stats expensive enough for you to think twice about having a 5 or 6.
I simply would have done it slightly differently. Like I said it irritates me, but not enough to change all that much about it. I like that SECKSy alleviates this while still making stats expensive enough for you to think twice about having a 5 or 6.
Out of curiosity, what is SECKSy?
| QUOTE (Xenith) |
| Runners are experts, are paid as such, and should have stats as such. |
For a 'professional' setup, the rules recommend 500 BP indeed.
Its simililar to BeCKS, but with some house rules added in as well here and there.
This is the custom rule package. And this is the excel generator for it.
I find attributes are bit expensive, (I'd prefer them at x4 instead) but it works out alright.
Edit: And I believe 500 bp are for "High-powered, elite operatives". I think of beginner and intermediate runners to be between this and street level (and 300 bp is really low I think, even for street level.)
IMO Street level should be 400 bp or at least 350, runners should be 450, and the elite, experienced runners at 500 bp.
This is the custom rule package. And this is the excel generator for it.
I find attributes are bit expensive, (I'd prefer them at x4 instead) but it works out alright.
Edit: And I believe 500 bp are for "High-powered, elite operatives". I think of beginner and intermediate runners to be between this and street level (and 300 bp is really low I think, even for street level.)
IMO Street level should be 400 bp or at least 350, runners should be 450, and the elite, experienced runners at 500 bp.
Ahhh, that's why...It's Serbitar's, and for some reason, I can't access his site. It always times out on me. Always. I've tried well over 30 times on different occasions. I can never access it. Sigh.
It is interesting that a number of the sample characters have more than 200 BPs allocated to attributes. The Gunslinger Adept has, I believe, 230 BPs worth of attributes which is not offset by Negative Qualities.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| It is interesting that a number of the sample characters have more than 200 BPs allocated to attributes. The Gunslinger Adept has, I believe, 230 BPs worth of attributes which is not offset by Negative Qualities. |
That's perfectly OK. The 200 BP limit applies to Physical and Mental attributes. That does not include special attributes. So Edge, Resonance, and Magic can be purchased above and beyond that 200 BP cutoff.
-Frank
And the points you spend on being a metahuman also don't apply to that limit, which is something of an encouragement to play metas, when you consider that the attribute bonuses they give you are usually worth at least as much as you pay to take the metatype.
(More, really, in the case of Orks, for example).
(More, really, in the case of Orks, for example).
Orks and dwarves, yeah.
Although technically, Humans get 10 BP for free in the form of +1 Edge; but since Edge doesn't fall under that 200 BP attribute cap it's not as impressive.
Although technically, Humans get 10 BP for free in the form of +1 Edge; but since Edge doesn't fall under that 200 BP attribute cap it's not as impressive.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
That's perfectly OK. The 200 BP limit applies to Physical and Mental attributes. That does not include special attributes. So Edge, Resonance, and Magic can be purchased above and beyond that 200 BP cutoff. -Frank |
Duly noted, I'm still working the basics of Chargen to get a handle on all of this stuff. So if you are a straight mundane (+Cyber/Bio) the 50% rule is basically it.
On another note, If you are playing a metatype, your starting attribute rating before applying BPs is 1 + (Racial Adjustment) Correct (Eg: an Elf starts with a Charisma of 3 before applying her BPs.)?
Correct.
Basically if your metatype has a bonus, then you start with 1 + Bonus and your non-augmented cap is 6 + Bonus. If you have a penalty, then you start with 1 but your non-augmented cap is lower (6 - Penalty).
Basically if your metatype has a bonus, then you start with 1 + Bonus and your non-augmented cap is 6 + Bonus. If you have a penalty, then you start with 1 but your non-augmented cap is lower (6 - Penalty).
Thanks. I'll eventually get all this down. I find the best way to learn a new system is to just basically slog through it as I go.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Oct 21 2005, 02:59 PM) |
| So if you are a straight mundane (+Cyber/Bio) the 50% rule is basically it. |
Except Edge.
| QUOTE |
| On another note, If you are playing a metatype, your starting attribute rating before applying BPs is 1 + (Racial Adjustment) Correct (Eg: an Elf starts with a Charisma of 3 before applying her BPs.)? |
Yes, when they are positive. When they are negative, like Logic for Orks, it just lowers the caps. So for an Ork Logic 1 costs nadda, Logic 2 costs 10 BP. Going from Logic 4 to Logic 5 costs the Ork 25BP because that is the last point to reach the natural cap on that Attribute.
Note that if said Ork has used the Exceptional Attribute (Logic) Quality to raise the natural cap by one to 6 then going from Logic 4 to Logic 5 only costs 10 BP, it becames the Logic 5 to Logic 6 step that costs 25BP.
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