If you fire two 3 round bursts from a shotgun what is the recoil mod for the two bursts? If I'm reading the rules right the 1st burst should be +6 and the 2nd +12. This is with no recoil compensation. Is this right?

Thanos

right, shotguns suffer double uncompensated recoil rules.

Though as a house rule (and/or common sense) you may add 1 point of recoil for shotguns with a stock. Since using a collapsible stock gives you 1 point of recoil comp when extended. The modifiers you listed are correct though.

So then a shotgun with 2 points of recoil reduction should then fire the two busts at +2 and +8. Correct?


Thanos

I've always thought a stock should give RC for weapons that don't usually have one, like pistols and some SMGs.

For rifles, ARs and the like, I'd perhaps make the weapon use heavy weapon recoil without a stock.

I think the rulebook says somewhere than anything rifle-sized or bigger gets no RC from stocks. Well, I *know* it says that about assault rifles, but maybe not shotguns, though it would make sense.

Yes, its correct that a shotgun recoil mods are doubled after you apply compensation. Both the 0 comp at +6/+12 and the 2 comp at +2/+8 examples are correct.

No, most of the time they dont get any inherant recoil.

However, you can add "shock pads" to any rifle sized weapon that has a stock for 1 point of recoil. Likewise you can add "folding stock" to any rifle sized weapon that does not have a stock for 1 point of recoil. Thus it would be stupid to *not* get the point that seems "inherant" since all it costs is a few hundred 'yen.

What determines which weapons have stocks? Not all shotguns have stocks, look at some of the tacticle ones out there now.

The Franchi SPAS22 comes with a fold out stock, yet it's a shotgun, large rifle type thing.

Yes, the SPAS has a folding stock. They gave it a RC mod, which I have no problems with because I love the SPAS. However, the SPAS-12 (which the SPAS-22 is based on) was never, ever meant to be fired with the stock folded. It folds for storage and carrying purposes only, so it would make reasonable sense to take away the RC for the stock and add extra penalties for not extending it.

~J

I would say anything larger than a SMG is meant to be fired from the shoulder, whether it actually has a stock or not.

Even for compact ARs like the M4 Carbine, with its 4"-6" stock when collapsed, you still have something to put to your shoulder, and it helps a lot with controllabity.

So by the rules a standard stock adds nothing, but a folding stock when used subtracts 1 point of recoil. I think I'll just stick with saying that a stock on a rifle works just as well as folding one, if not better.

On the issue of using a tactical shotgun with a butt stock, I really must beg to differ. I've seen plenty of tactical shotguns with just a pistol grip.

Per canon, folding stocks give a point of recoil comp while fixed stocks do not. I would like to point out that this is retarded, and most sane GMs allow fixed stocks to work just like their folded variants without the added bonus of allowing extra concealability.

Or you could assume that if you take a fixed-stock shotgun and chop the stock off, you're getting an extra point of recoil, which is what I do.

Which still doesn't change the fact that with a foldout stock you get a- 1 recoil modifier (when used). Even if you incur a +1 recoil modifier if you don’t have a stock. By your rules.

But then there are other ways of bracing for recoiling, not just a weapon stock on your shoulder…like using your hands. That seems to work well for high-powered pistols firing a heavy grain slug out of a light weight frame. But hey, what do people who use, design and sell tactical shotguns know?

If the gun is designed to be fired with a stock, then the "baseline" recoil for that gun is with a stock. If the gun is designed to be fired without a stock, then that is the "baseline" recoil. If you then add a stock to the second gun, it gains a bonus to its recoil compensation above the baseline.

By the same token, when you add shock pads to the rigid stock, you gain a +1 recoil compensation over its baseline. From a game balance perspective, each type of weapon has one of these as an option, but not both.

You guys are still totally missing the boat. All this "stocks dont give recoil isnt right" talk, yet the rules clearly work with the idea that they should in mind.

Like I said before, any firearm may add either a folding stock or shock pads (but not both) which are both worth 1 point of recoil compensation.

Thus its totally irrelevent what the gun comes with, what it seems it should have, what the description is, and anything else that falls into that area. All guns can get the 1 point of recoil for "having that thing you brace with your shoulder". Call it what you will, but the rules for it are there.

Who determines if a weapon is designed to use a stock or not? In Shadowrun that is. Recoil pads don't work on all weapons, or rather they aren't needed. Like an AR-15, SKS, Mini-14. By game rules anything can use them. In real life it's not needed or most times used.

Using a tactical shot is more than just blasting doors. You use them for any given engagement 30m and under. Truthfully in real life, recoil from one shot doesn't mean jack. With a pump action shotgun you shoot, pump, shoot, etc. If you want I can suggest a few tactical shotgun pages.

Lastly recoil pads only help with excessive recoil and how it's going to affect your body. It has little or nothing to do with how well you're going to place you next shot, pain aside. Which most weapons in Shadowrun aren't going to deal out to their users. Short of SA, BF, and FA shotguns, hunting rifles, and sniper rifles. Perhaps not even some of them. Yet you can add a recoil pad an assault rifle and it gives you an in game –1 recoil modifier. Like the stock/folding stock issue it's just a number that someone added because it sounded good. Put a recoil pad on a 22lr semi auto and tell me how it works. It breaks the system. Which is exactly what we are trying to discus here. Don't close your eyes to ideas that are new to you.

well, i don't think there's anybody here who'd say that the firearms rules would not require a massive re-write in order to make them realistic. that's a lot of work, though; there's a high probability that you'd end up with something as skewed or more skewed that the current rules.

In real life recoil from one shot means quite a bit. Ever known someone who injured themselves from a weapon that kicked harder than they thought it would? I've known experienced shootists who've done that.

~J

Guys, the point of folding stocks for rifle sized weapons isn't the recoil comp...it's the conceal bonus when they are folded. If you have a Colt M-23 (which has a stock) you do not get a point of recoil comp for the stock being there. What you CAN do now is chop the stock off and put a folding stock on it. Now you have a Colt M-23 with an extra point of conceal, but a plus to recoil when you try to fire it, when the stock is folded. When you unfold the stock the conceal and recoil go back to normal. I know what the rules say, but this makes the most sense.

Actually, the rules say that a stock does nothing for a shotgun or rifle-type weapon. The only argument for folding stocks doing something that I've seen is that the Franchi SPAS-22 is designed differently. It's made along the lines of "this is a cool gun, let's make it good", and thus, like the AVS, it doesn't play the same way other guns do. If I'm missing another example of a folding stock on a rifle-class weapon providing RC, do disillusion me, but otherwise either take away the point for the SPAS or deal with it.

~J

Doesnt matter if the base guns are consistent ... after mods they all wind up the same, with a consistent 1 point of recoil for the stock in some form or another. Thus anyone who has read those rules can get around whatever logical hangup you guys are stuck on and play with the exact same results you desire without having to house rule anything. Bottom line, its a game, the rules dont follow reality exactly, but when used they *do* wind up with the results everyone says are realistic. Not seeing an issue.

Kagetenshi those are people who assume too much. The first time I fire a weapon I always overcompensate for the recoil so that I'm not caught off guard. But really unless you just pick the weapon up for the first and use it for a fire fight, I don't see that as being an issue.

Street Wyze could you please post a rules reference for that? Just because you don’t have your shoulder up against the but of the gun doesn’t mean that you aren't bracing it. Look at pistols, a 9mm kicks more than an AR-15. Why? Lighter weight, no muzzle brake, hand positioning too close, etc.

http://www.tacticalshotguns.com/
http://www.gunaccessories.com/ShotgunStocks/index.asp
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewforum.php?f=7
http://www.cabelas.com/information/Hunting...Set0003645.html
Just to list a few.

I summon the Raygun to adjudicate this dispute.
*Sacrifices an Ares Viper Slivergun*

~J

Didn't Cannon Companion bring back the strength compensates for recoil notion first introduced in Fields of Fire? Anyway, I had always run under the assumption that folding stocks were for SMGs or for what Street Wyze said about boosting the conceal of rifle sized weapons.

This is why I never game with anyone from seattle.

I have a question that never really made sense to me. Why is it that you only have to compensate for the recoil of a shotgun before the the shot. If a shotgun throws off a shot 12pts (2nd shot of burst mode) then why is only 6 pts of compensation needed?

...If you mean why is uncompensated recoil doubled after recoil compensation is applied, it's so the things are useable.
If that's not what you're asking, I have absolutely no idea.

~J

Well, it's kinda simple. I realised this when I was 13 years old and learning to shoot an FN. Either you're strong enough to handle the recoil (then it's no problem), or you're not strong enough (and then there's very little you can do).

A properly used shotgun can be used for competition target practice. If you don't use it properly (ie. don't properly control the recoil), then you NEED the buckshot advantage.

In other words, if you've lost control - you've REALLY lost control.

Possibly to indicate that both the recoil and the recoil compensators for these items are heavier-duty without having to add in things that will compensate for 6 points of recoil, because you know that some munchkin is going to trick, bribe, or wheedle a GM into allowing it on another weapon because "why wouldn't they make the better systems for lighter weapons?"

~J

The game mechanics aren't great and we all know that. An assault rifle generates 1 point of recoil per shot the same a shot and the same as high-powered sniper/hunting rifle. In real life that isn’t the case. It's a broken game mechanic.

The same way that a heavy pistol is better at punching through barriers and defeating armor than an assault rifle. The exact opposite of real life.

For that matter a spear is a better weapon for busting through doors than an ax is. Why? Because the power level is higher.

Kagetenshi informs me that there is some dispute over what shotguns without shoulder stocks are designed for.

They're designed to be relatively compact. That's about it. This lends them well to certain tasks, like stowing in a squad car or use as a door breeching device for teams that are undermanned. The breecher can pop the door hinges and quickly transition to a primary weapon, most likely a rifle, while the rest of the stack ingresses. But stockless shotguns can be used as primary weapons, too. Being small, they are handy for CQB. But they do require a little specialized training.

As far as rules are concerned, if a fixed shoulder stock provides a point of recoil compensation on any weapon, a folding or retracting stock should do the same thing. If it doesn't, then it shouldn't. In reality, a shoulder stock will make it a bit easier to absorb recoil, thus allowing for faster follow-up shots. So I can understand why a modifier would be applied.

And Viewer666 is right about the recoil/shock pads. They shouldn't provide any kind of recoil compensation modifier at all, ever.

Thanks

~J