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Azralon
I was curious the other day about what it'd take to be an unequipped spellcaster with the capacity to, under average dice rolls, one-shot pretty much anyone with a single Stunbolt.

I chose Stunbolt because A) Generally Stun tracks are shorter than Physical tracks, so it'll likely be more globally effective and B) if this is going to be a caster's primary and signature spell, it should have a low drain code so it can be cast more often.

So my target of choice is a Dwarf with Exceptional Attribute: Willpower. You're looking at a Willpower of 8, which gives a Stun track of 12 boxes.

Working backwards, we can assume that a Willpower of 8 will generate about 2.66 hits per roll. I'm going to bump that up to an even 3 to give us a mild safety margin and keep the math simple.

This means our target will likely negate 3 boxes of incoming Stun per spell. Since we're looking to drop him from fresh to a net of 12 boxes, that means our casting needs to do an average of 15S. A tall order.

Let's construct our mage with the Qualities of Magician (15), Aptitude: Sorcery (10), and Mentor Spirit (5). The Mentor will be someone/something that gives +2 to Combat spells, of course. We'll max out our Spellcasting at 7, then Specialize in Combat spells (2). That leaves our mage throwing an impressive 11 dice on Combat spells.

So now the question becomes: At what Force should the Stunbolt be cast to insure that bullheaded dwarf drops?

To answer that, we need to decide one more thing first: What the caster's Magic attribute is. Let's assume that the caster doesn't like the idea of taking Physical drain, so the maximum Force of the Stunbolt will equal the caster's Magic. That, too, makes the math easy to chew on.

CODE
(Force) + (Spellcasting Successes) = (Raw Damage Output)

(Force) + ((Magic + Spellcasting)/3) = 15

(Force) + ((Force + 11)/3) = 15

3(Force) + Force + 11 = 45

4(Force) + 11 = 45

4(Force) = 34

Force = 8.5


So basically the Force needs to be 9, as cast by someone with a 9 Magic. Plugging those numbers back in, we see:

CODE
(Force) + ((Magic + Spellcasting)/3) = (Raw Damage Output)

9 + ((9 + 11)/3) =

9 + (20/3) =

9 + 6.66 = 15.66


Note that if we tossed in 1 extra Spellcasting die (like from a focus), we could actually cast the spell at Force 8 and get an average of exactly 15S out of the deal. But, since casting a spell at Force 8 or at Force 9 has an identical drain code then you may as well cast it at your full Magic rating.

While it's brought up, the drain code for this whammy would be 3S. This means that on average you'd need to be throwing at least 9 dice on your drain test to negate the drain. For most serious casters, this isn't going to be a problem.

So what happens if we construct this guy without Aptitude, a Combat mentor, and without a Specialization? That is, keeping the rest the same but giving him a Spellcasting skill of 6?

CODE
(Force) + ((Magic + Spellcasting)/3) = (Raw Damage Output)

9 + ((9 + 6)/3) =

9 + (15/3) =

9 + 5 = 14


Clearly he's going to come up short when knocking out the target dwarf (pun intended). So he'll have to bump his Force (and therefore, Magic) up some. Magic 10 will do the job.

CODE
(Force) + ((Magic + Spellcasting)/3) = (Raw Damage Output)

10 + ((10 + 6)/3) =

10 + (16/3) =

10 + 5.33 = 15.33


I bring this up to illustrate that the Aptitude, Mentor bonus, and Specialization bonus weren't really needed if you wanted to wait to initiate one more time (or got your hands on an appropriate power focus). It takes 3 more dice during the Spellcasting test to equal to what 1 more in your Magic rating gets you.

Of course, casting at 10 means the drain code is 4S and would require an average of 12 dice to negate that. To have a Magic of 10 you're probably an initiate anyway, so Centering will likely make the drain irrelevant.

~~~~~

Feel free to pick that apart. Did I leave any holes?
PlatonicPimp
What if the target has spell defense (Oops, I mean counterspelling dice) from a friendly mage?
Azralon
Oh, and if you don't care about taking Physical drain, then at minimum you need to have a Magic of 6 (Spellcasting 6 assumed), casting the Stunbolt at 12.

That'll leave you with a raw damage output of 16S at the price of 5P drain.

So basically even a non-initiate can one-shot someone with a Stunbolt, it's just that they'll have spend a few rounds getting healed up afterwards.
Azralon
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Oct 27 2005, 05:14 PM)
What if the target has spell defense (Oops, I mean counterspelling dice) from a friendly mage?

A valid question, but I omitted it from the example because of the variability of the available Spell Defense.

Just pick the Counterspelling amount you'd want to see and toss it in the (admittedly basic) formula.
PlatonicPimp
We're also ignoring any foci the caster may have. After all, buying and Bonding foci at charater creation is chaep and easy.
Azralon
Yep, again omitted due to wide variability.
PlatonicPimp
Ah, come on. Twink it out. I don't have my book with me, but I'm thinking a force 2 or 3 power focus is well within the reach of a beginning character's resources, and a drain focus for the other end of the bargain.
blakkie
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Oct 27 2005, 03:33 PM)
Ah, come on. Twink it out. I don't have my book with me, but I'm thinking a force 2 or 3 power focus is well within the reach of a beginning character's resources, and a drain focus for the other end of the bargain.

Starting character Weapon and Power foci work out to a max of Force 2, Force 3 for all other foci.

P.S. One thing i just noticed a couple of days ago that is different from SR3 is that Counterspelling foci are now aspected to a spell category (Spell Defense foci were not) and Banishing foci (as well as all other spirit foci) are aspected to only one spirit type. I thought they were extemely cheap, but given the limit of 1 focus/Magic point limit and that you need 5 to cover all spells and 6 to cover all [current] spirits that throws a serious kink into their value.
Dancer
For maximum power, you can cast multiple Stunbolts at once, and target them all on the same person. More than 2 has a chance of not breaking through their Willpower, but a pair of Force 5 stunbolts will knock down even superdwarf if they both hit, and has a Drain Code (for someone with Magic 5) of 2x 2S.
Serbitar
I may be wrong, but:

Doesnt a direct combat spell (like a stunbolt) work different ?

You only make the opposed test, to see whether the target is affected by the spell or not. If he is affected, he gets the damage and nothing more, if he is not affected he gets nothing.
Azralon
QUOTE (Dancer @ Oct 27 2005, 07:14 PM)
For maximum power, you can cast multiple Stunbolts at once, and target them all on the same person. More than 2 has a chance of not breaking through their Willpower, but a pair of Force 5 stunbolts will knock down even superdwarf if they both hit, and has a Drain Code (for someone with Magic 5) of 2x 2S.

While I don't see anything explicitly saying you can't do that, it seems to be a violation of the spirit of the rule. If anything, it opens up more possibilities for exploits so I'd be hesistant to interpret it that way.

QUOTE (SR4 p173)
Casting Multiple Spells: In some circumstances, a magician may seek to cast multiple spells simultaneously (including multiples of the same spell—for example, to target two different opponents with a mana bolt in the same action). Multiple spells may be cast with the same Complex Action, but to do so the magician must split her Magic + Spellcasting dice pool between each target. Additionally, the Drain Value for each of the spells is increased by +1 per additional spell (Drain Resistance Tests are also handled separately). Multiple spells are resolved in whatever order the caster desires. The maximum number of spells a character can cast in a single Complex Action is equal to her Spellcasting skill, and each spell must be allocated at least one die.


I theorize that the anti-loophole loophole is that you have to split your dice pool between each target -- not between each casting -- and each spell must be allocated at least one die. Since you have only one target, no splitting is possible.
Azralon
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Oct 28 2005, 07:42 AM)
Doesnt a direct combat spell (like a stunbolt) work different ?

You only make the opposed test, to see whether the target is affected by the spell or not. If he is affected, he gets the damage and nothing more, if he is not affected he gets nothing.

QUOTE (SR4 p196)
Damage Value: The base Damage Value for Combat spells is based on Force, which is chosen by the magician at the time of casting. Any net hits scored on the Spellcasting Test increase the DV by 1 per net hit.


Boy, wouldn't magic just stink if you couldn't stage up the DV. smile.gif

Direct combat spells work differently in that there's no "evasion" roll; you're considered autohit and armor is ignored. All you get (barring Counterspelling dice) is a "soak" roll.

Well... if the caster doesn't make a single success on his Spellcasting + Magic roll, then technically you don't even need to soak because the other guy blew it.
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon @ Oct 28 2005, 12:23 PM)
Direct combat spells work differently in that there's no "evasion" roll; you're considered autohit and armor is ignored.  All you get (barring Counterspelling dice) is a "soak" roll.

Well... if the caster doesn't make a single success on his Spellcasting + Magic roll, then technically you don't even need to soak because the other guy blew it.

Er, no. All you get is a resistance roll, no "soak". If the resistance rolls as many, or more hits than the Magic+Spellcasting no damage is taken. EDIT: This means that target takes at least Force+1 damage or none at all.

QUOTE (SR4 @ page195-196)
Direct Combat Spells: Handle these as an Opposed
Test. Th e caster’s Magic + Spellcasting is resisted by the target’s
Body (for physical spells) or Willpower (for mana spells), plus
Counterspelling (if available). Th e caster needs at least one net
hit for the spell to take eff ect. Direct Combat spells aff ect the
target from the inside, so armor does not help with resistance.
maa01
QUOTE (blakkie)
Er, no. All you get is a resistance roll, no "soak". If the resistance rolls as many, or more hits than the Magic+Spellcasting no damage is taken. EDIT: This means that target takes at least Force+1 damage or none at all.

... so this is more dodge roll with no soak or armor than soak roll.
Azralon
QUOTE (maa01 @ Oct 28 2005, 02:52 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie)
Er, no. All you get is a resistance roll, no "soak". If the resistance rolls as many, or more hits than the Magic+Spellcasting no damage is taken. EDIT: This means that target takes at least Force+1 damage or none at all.

... so this is more dodge roll with no soak or armor than soak roll.

Good point. I suppose I never mentally connected that because I have yet to see a spell cast without net suc... hits.
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (maa01 @ Oct 28 2005, 02:52 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie)
Er, no. All you get is a resistance roll, no "soak". If the resistance rolls as many, or more hits than the Magic+Spellcasting no damage is taken. EDIT: This means that target takes at least Force+1 damage or none at all.

... so this is more dodge roll with no soak or armor than soak roll.

Good point. I suppose I never mentally connected that because I have yet to see a spell cast without net suc... hits.

Yes maa01, that's a good way to look at it.

Azralon, you've mostly seen tweaked caster specialists vs. no Counterspelling and mook/gimped Willpower opponents then? Or have the opponents just not rolled well?
maa01
The best way to oneshot someone:

1) make mage with magic 8, spellcasting 6 and edge 6.
2) cast force 15 manabolt and use edge.
3) one net hit = even a dragon is toasted.
4) take physical drain, almost die and spend a week healing.

... you can call it Rah Tilt (for people who know anime classic). it's defenitively one-shot - you really have only one shot per week smile.gif
Azralon
QUOTE (blakkie)
you've mostly seen tweaked caster specialists vs. no Counterspelling

Thar she blows.
Azralon
QUOTE (maa01)
The best way to oneshot someone:
1) make mage with magic 8, spellcasting 6 and edge 6.

See, I was leaving Edge out of it too for a good reason. smile.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (maa01 @ Oct 28 2005, 02:50 PM)
The best way to oneshot someone:

1) make mage with magic 8, spellcasting 6 and edge 6.
2) cast force 15 manabolt and use edge.
3) one net hit = even a dragon is toasted.
4) take physical drain, almost die and spend a week healing.

... you can call it Rah Tilt (for people who know anime classic). it's defenitively one-shot - you really have only one shot per week smile.gif

Yup, though it would be tough as hell to have it stick on something like a Great Dragon. They are rolling a minimum of 23 dice with Willpower+Counterspelling before foci. So even if they don't burn a point of Edge, and assuming equal foci, specialization, and other modifiers the caster only has a slightly above 50% chance of stunning the GD. Of course all the GD has to do is burn a point of Edge to use Twist of Fate to force the reroll of hits and that pretty much screws the caster because they can't use Edge more than once on a roll therefore they can't avoid that Twist of Fate.

BTW that is something i don't like about the design of Direct Combat spells, the all or nothing. It's fine at lower Force, but at higher Force it's kinda wacky. *shrug*
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon @ Oct 28 2005, 02:56 PM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 28 2005, 04:35 PM)
you've mostly seen tweaked caster specialists vs. no Counterspelling

Thar she blows.

Hehe, in our group the one PC mage is extremely specialized in Fireballing. I GMed the first couple of sessions, but the guy that was going to GM the rest, unknown to me, made the mistake of saying "don't worry about Avail" to this fellow. eek.gif So this guy dropped some cash into Jazz to feed his habit and the rest into a Force 6 Spellcasting (Combat) focus.

After a session of the mage tossing out Force 8 fireballs, with the GM-to-be playing a PC along side him the GM-to-be (who hadn't seriously read the SR4 rules, and hadn't really read them fully yet) decided he might have to revisit the issue of Avail. rotfl.gif

P.S. I think he has a moderate addiction to Jazz. I pretty sure he didn't realize how easily it could get worse and eventually burn him out. I also haven't seen his character sheet up close, but given that he has Magic 6 i'm guessing he is quite weak elsewhere and is not long for this world. But man is he going to go out in a blaze of glory. sarcastic.gif
Azralon
QUOTE (blakkie)
"don't worry about Avail"

lick.gif

Well, it's the duty of all players to optimize their characters and it's the duty of every GM to keep that drek in check.

I guess someone in your crew forgot to play both sides of the fence properly. wink.gif
maa01
QUOTE (blakkie)

Yup, though it would be tough as hell to have it stick on something like a Great Dragon.  They are rolling a minimum of 23 dice with Willpower+Counterspelling before foci.  So even if they don't burn a point of Edge, and assuming equal foci, specialization, and other modifiers the caster only has a slightly above 50% chance of stunning the GD.  Of course all the GD has to do is burn a point of Edge to use Twist of Fate to force the reroll of hits and that pretty much screws the caster because they can't use Edge more than once on a roll therefore they can't avoid that Twist of Fate.

BTW that is something i don't like about the design of Direct Combat spells, the all or nothing. It's fine at lower Force, but at higher Force it's kinda wacky. *shrug*

Still, only ONE net hit and he is DOWN. that comes for dragons, crazy insect spirits, chaos demons possesing a giants, everything.

by the way - chaos demon formula.

demon = fire spirit with regeneration power and IP: 3
possesing a body = add half former physical attributes to spirit attributes
giant = physical attributes are 8 and more
chaos = antimagic - half force dice pool penalty for spellcasting on him

.. our GM is somehow crazy. and also, our setting is somehow special smile.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 28 2005, 05:16 PM)
"don't worry about Avail"

lick.gif

Well, it's the duty of all players to optimize their characters and it's the duty of every GM to keep that drek in check.

I guess someone in your crew forgot to play both sides of the fence properly. wink.gif

I think he flat out didn't realize what it could mean. He is usually pretty good about keeping that stuff in check....mainly because of his accomplished munchkinism that lets him know about that stuff. smile.gif He just hadn't read the SR4 rules, and was mostly going off experience with SR3 where i believe you could buy any force focus you wanted with the limitations that kept it sane coming in the form of Bonding Costs and/or Cash.
blakkie
QUOTE (maa01)
Still, only ONE net hit and he is DOWN. that comes for dragons, crazy insect spirits, chaos demons possesing a giants, everything.

by the way - chaos demon formula.

demon = fire spirit with regeneration power and IP: 3
possesing a body = add half former physical attributes to spirit attributes
giant = physical attributes are 8 and more
chaos = antimagic - half force dice pool penalty for spellcasting on him

.. our GM is somehow crazy. and also, our setting is somehow special smile.gif

Ya, it's the all or nothing thing. frown.gif I still wouldn't be concerned about the GD, they can take care of themselves just fine. To start with that caster should have burned up all his luck just getting to the point where he could target the spell. *shrug*

P.S. The chaos demon possessing a giant would not nessasarly be down come the end of the Combat Turn. Regeneration isn't want it used to be, but it's still a PITA to have on a critter. So make sure to [metagame wink.gif and] cast the Stunbolt in an early IP so you have a chance to take him into Physical overdamage before the end of the Combat Turn.
maa01
QUOTE (blakkie)
P.S. The chaos demon possessing a giant would not nessasarly be down come the end of the Combat Turn.  Regeneration isn't want it used to be, but it's still a PITA to have on a critter. So make sure to [metagame wink.gif and] cast the Stunbolt in an early IP so you have a chance to take him into Physical overdamage before the end of the Combat Turn.

we play it that regeneration on spirit work normally while he's in normal damage track, but once he is disrupted, he's gone, even with regeneration.

I can take care of them with my "rah tilt"(*). and my ally spirit. and the second mage, specialized in conjuring. and that magicaly enhanced troll with magical styche ... well, nevermind smile.gif let's get back to topic smile.gif

... force 6 or 7 stunbolt can take care of normal human most of time.

(*) this is spell from one old anime - it's the strongest spiritual spell that can take out even one of the stronges demons in one shot, and the only reason why it can't level a city is that it's singletarget ... and that there is black magic for this.
Xenith
I wanna Ragnablade spell! That would rock. ^_^

I'm surprised there were never melee weapon "reach" spells. Kind of a step above touch range. Probably no drain adjustment (since the reach gives you a bonus to melee) but how would one handle the reach and damage? +1 reach to a max of 3 (or 4?) per two successes? I dunno.
maa01
QUOTE (Xenith)
I wanna Ragnablade spell! That would rock. ^_^

I'm surprised there were never melee weapon "reach" spells. Kind of a step above touch range. Probably no drain adjustment (since the reach gives you a bonus to melee) but how would one handle the reach and damage? +1 reach  to a max of 3 (or 4?) per two successes? I dunno.

We had houseruled flame/ice/acid/whatever weapon with same statistics like sustained nonarea elemental spell and drain f/2 + 2 + reach, that were used with sorcery as a combat skill. not much good until you had 8th initiation grade where you can take "double sustaining" metamagic that allows you to ignore one of +2 for spell sustaining. or sustaining focus. or quickened spell from some high-grade initiate so it's switchable.
Hasaku
Reminds me of the old Mageblade spells, including the classic lightsaber handle anchoring focus.
Azralon
QUOTE (blakkie)
He is usually pretty good about keeping that stuff in check....mainly because of his accomplished munchkinism that lets him know about that stuff. smile.gif

Takes a munchkin to catch a munchkin! I fully subscribe to that gaming philosophy.
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