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hyzmarca
The movie Thirteen Ghosts sucked, both of them. But they both had promise and would actually be good if certain elements from each were slapped together in a certain way.


Known as alternatly as The Devil's Tarot or the Avatars of Sin, Hell's Zodiac is a collection of thirteen earthbound specters.

In life, each of these ghosts was consumed by a particular sin so much so that they became the sin and it became them. In death, they are their sin personified. Each of the 13 is an avatar of a particular human vice.

There are never any more then 13 members of the Devil's Tarot, one for each sin represented. If an Avatar is destroyed its position will remain vacant untill another suitably damned soul takes its place.

Each of the Avatars suffers from Essence Loss and each is driven to stalk and destroy mortals who have commited their particular sin. When they do so, they take the essence of their victim.

Avatars of Sin are chained to the world not be a physical object but by a concept. As such, they cannot be bound and they can only be destroyed by a magician who is or once was similarly consumed by the Avatar's sin.

--

Wrath - The Crusher

The Crusher is the current Avatar of Wrath. Like all Wraths before him and all who will come after, The Crusher is driven be an all consuming rage that can never be calmed.

During the middle ages he was an abusive blacksmith renouned for his ability to get into the most pointless barroom brawls. When he caught his wife having sex with another man he bludgeoned her lover to death but was so blind with rage that he didn't notice his wife stabbing him in the back while he crushed the dead man's bones into dust.

The Crusher appears to be a troll-sized human wielding a giant hammer with hollow eyes that burn bright red with rage. He cannot comuincate and he cannot be reasoned with. He simply Crushes everything in his path as he hunts those who have commited the sin of Wrath.

--

Violence - The Jackal

The sin of wrath is a sin of incontinence. It is about losing control of one's emotions.
The sin of violence, on the other hand, is all about control. Those guilty of violence are cold and calculating. They are in control and they control their victims. Conquers and assasins often fall into this sin.

During the latter half of 20th century, The Jackal was a expert assassin and an expert of disguise. His entire life revolved around killing or preparing for a kill. As a result, he was a perfect canidate to assume the position of Violence.

In death, the Jackel appears to be a deformed clawed human who's head is stuck in an iron cage. He is a calculating but ruthless killer who stalks other cold blooded killers with extreme efficiency.

--

Lust - The Scarred Lover

Like Wrath, Lust is a sin of incontinence. Those who are lustful cannot control their sexual desires and they give their love too freely.

The Withered Lover lived a double life. She was a suburban housewife on the nights, evenings, and weekends. During the day while her husband was working she was a very expensive prostitute. She didn't need the money. She put it in a savings account and never touched it. She did the job because he loved the sex. She was addicted random sex with random strangers. The money was just icing on the cake.

One day, as she was driving home, a truck cut her off in trafic and she lost control. Having neglected to wear her seatbelt, she flew face-first through the windshield.

The Scarred appears to be the single most beautiful and sexually desireable person the onlooker has ever seen. Two different people can look at her at the exact same time and see two completely different beings. Her gender, race, metatype, and other features are entirely determined by the desires of onlookers and are not fixed untill she is ready for the kill.

When she kisses her intended victim the fist thing the lustful metahuman notices is a cutting sensation as shards of broken glass scratch his or her face. This, Lust pulls back revealing her true self, horribly scarred with huge shards of razor-sharp glass imbeded in her face. She then uses this shards to eviscerate her lover.

--
Comments please.
fistandantilus4.0
could make a nice horror tie in. I have to agree that the movie had a lot of potential ,but sucked. I found watching the back story to be a lot more interesting. Are these going to be spirits (ancestor? Spectres?) driven by a common goal, or one main advesary (the devil? a horror? Richard Villiers?), or as I said, a horror type tie in? Some black magic cult putting wicked spirits into a group to serve some cause, like binding free spirits?

Keep 'em a coming
Aku
interesting ideas, but i only count three...not thirteen!

oh, and as sin movies go, i like Seven.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Oct 29 2005, 02:38 AM)
could make a nice horror tie in. I have to agree that the movie had a lot of potential ,but sucked. I found watching the back story to be a lot more interesting. Are these going to be spirits (ancestor? Spectres?) driven by a common goal, or one main advesary (the devil? a horror? Richard Villiers?), or as  I said, a horror type tie in? Some black magic cult putting wicked spirits into a group to serve some cause, like binding free spirits?

Keep 'em a coming

They are Spectres with a rather unique ghost chain. Instead of being bound to the world by a physical object they are bound to the world by metahuman vice and sin.
They are not diriven by a common goal so much as they have a common nature. Each is out for itself but their natures force them to perform the same acts, to stalk and kill sinners. Their origins, I leave up to whoever decides to use them. However, I see them as more of forces of nature than anything else. They may be related to the Advasary Idol but they aren't under its direct control.

Then again, those who desier certain types of power can attempt to use them as I'll explore later so I wouldn't cound Richard Villiers out.


Gluttony - The Collector

Gluttony is usually represented by overeating. However, gluttony is a sin of excess consumption no matter what is consummed. Those who hoard materl wealth are just as gluttonous as those who consume massive amounts of food.

Cyrus Zorba was a wealthy man in interests in a few As and AAs. He had no shortage of money but it did not buy him happiness. Instead, he traveled the world searching for rare or unique artifacts to add to his collection. He was a glutton for collectibals and his obsession with obtaining better and stranger worldly goods would lead to his downfall. When material thing could no longer satiate Cyrus' gluttony he turned to collecting ghosts. Not just any ghosts mind you, Cyrus collected the Avatars themselves. Having collected 11 of them, Cyrus became the 12th when he was killed by a deathtrap that he had collected years earlier.

The Collector appears to be a dignified man in a white suit with a white beard, not unlike Colonel Sanders. Attached to his body by chains are representations of the trinkets he has collected over the years including gold coins, unopened Star Trek action figures, mayan pottery, and other artifacts both ancient and new. He is eternally forced to drag around the things that he so desired in life. When he takes the essense of a glutton that person's likeness is added to his burdern.

Unlike the other Avatars, The Collector was only recently killed and maintains much of his humanity. He acts according to his own plans rather that serving his insatiable desires. He intends to complete his collection of ghosts and is obssessed with finding number 13. To this end he will manipulate others as best as he can. However, it is only a matter of time before his unholy desires get the beter of him and he degenerates into a relenless killed of the gluttonous.

--

Simony - The Magus

Named for Simon Magus, simony is the sin of exchanging material wealth for the promise of spiritual salvation.
The act of practicing magic for hire is not, in and of itself, simony. Magic for hire only becomes simony when one attempts to achieve spiritual immortality through magic.
The most notable simonists of the Sixth World are Cybermancers who perserve souls beyond their time in exchange for money.

In life, the Magus was known as Pope Clement V. His simontical practices led to the Great Schism in the Roman Catholic Church and he is damned because of them.
The Magus appears to be a distinguished Roman Catholic priest carrying a cross in one hand and a collection plate in the other. The collection plate is full of what appear to be giant lumps of lead, symbolizing that material wealth is worthless and burdensome in the spiritual realm. The Magus stalks simonist priests and cybermancers, bludgeoning them to death with his lead offerings.

--

Squander - The Bloody Princess

Squander is the sin is violence against oneself and one's property. It is the sin of self destruction and of suicide.

In life, the Bloody Princess was the kind of person who would cut off her nose to spite her face. She had great wealth and a loving family but she threw it all away in her anger. When she had nothing left but her life she threw that away, as well.

The Bloody Princess possesses nothing, not even clothes. Arteries in her neck and her wrists are cut open and blood pours freely from them as she stalks her victims. She slays squanders by holding their faces against the gash in her neck and drowning them in her own free-flowing blood.

--


So here are 4, 5, and 6. I'll be back with more.
PBTHHHHT
dang, how appropriate with halloween coming up. You and AH, putting out all these horror stuff (Still haven't read that story)... sheeesh. But that's what I love about shadowrun, it can cross over to so many different genres, it's awesome.
hyzmarca
Sloth - The Pestilant Angel

Sloth isn't just about lazinesses. Those guilty of Sloth are the ones who do niether good nor evil. They accomplish nothing in life and thus are damned to a fate worse than hell. According to Dante, the slothful eternally wait outside of the gates of Hell along with all of the angels who refuses to chooses sides during Lucifer's attempted coup.

The Pestinant Angel was once a warrior who pledged his service to a feudal lord. When that lord died his two heirs fought over his land. While the lord's other vassal's sidded with one heir or the other The Pesitlant Angel refused to do so, believing that his lord would not want to see either child killed but knowing of no way to settle the conflict peacefully. When his refusal to act made him a criminal in both camps he ran away. During his travels he encountered many great injustices that he could have righted with his exceptional skills yet he always looked the other way. While he did no harm, he did no good either. Eventually he contracted he leprosy and died as a hermit.

At first glance, The Pestilant Angel appears to be a majestic warrior of light. He is a powerful man wearing shining armor and carrying a brilliant sword. However, a second glance will reveal the truth. This Avatar is a pittiful creature. Its sword is rusted, pitted, dull, and chipped. Mold clings to its armor and toadstools grow out of cracks in the metal. It has no hair and no eyes. ts muscles have atrophied from disues leaving sagging flesh to attest to their mormer bulk. Puss oozes from open sores that cover its body. Its flesh is grey and necrotic. It smells of its own death.
-----

Treason - ??

Those who betray their nation, their family, or their benefactors are guilty of Treason. Treason is an outright perverting of love and trust. According to Dante, it is the worst of all sins. Likewise, Treason is the most powerful and the most vile of the 13 Avatars.

Currently, there is no Treason. Its former Avatar, Judas Iscariot, was destroyed by Christian magicians not long ago.

-----

Treason - The Traitor

The Traitor was the lawyer, assistant, and confidant of Cyrus Zorba. He had been embezling from Cyrus for years without being caught. However, as his debts mounted faster than he could skim money he became impatient. Believing that he could take all of Cyrus's fortune by abusing his position as executor of his estate, The Traitor murdered Cyrus by placing an elaborate deathtrap in is bed.
The Traitor became the 13th member of Hell's Zodiac and the centerpiece of Cyrus's collection when Cyrus's vengefull spirit, now The Collector, exacted his revenge.

The Traitor appears to be a slick clean-cut lawyer in a nuyen.gif 50,000 business suit. He carries a briefcase and his left hand and holds out hid right as a gesture of firendship.
He has no back. Instead, he has a second front. Those standing behind The Traitor are treated to a view of a deformed with pools of total darkness where its eyes should be and a gaping maw containing munderds of dagger-like teeth. It wears a cloak that hides its body in shadow and has an uncountable number of of partially concealed arms. In each of its uncountable hands it carries a weapon more wicked and more deadly than the last.

The Traitor stalks those with treason in their hearts, offering comradery and then slaying those foolish enough to accept.

----

For those wondering why I included two different versions of Treason, it is for those who might wish to create a run centered around the concept. In the original black and white movie, the lawyer murdered Cyrus and of greed and became the 13th ghost when he was killed in his own deathtrap. I would imagine that the best run concept would have the lawyer hiring the runners to help look for Cyrus's hidden money. The poor guy didn't believe in banks, you see, and kept most of his wealth in hard curency in a secret vault. Ideally, the Lawyer should die during the run, becoming The Traitor when he is offed.
ShadowDragon8685
I like your notion of using Judas Iscariot as Treason. (Not Christian, mind, but it's a good idea.) Why not say he overcame the christian magicians and give us his full write-up?

I imagine he'd have a very special rancor in his twisted, evil soul for those who do as he did, and turn over wanted fugitives that they personally know for the government reward.
nick012000
I'd imagine that runners would be attacked by Violence almost immediately, and a fair few would be hunted by Sloth, as well.

Are you planning on posting stats (Force and Powers)?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (nick012000 @ Oct 29 2005, 11:04 PM)
I'd imagine that runners would be attacked by Violence almost immediately, and a fair few would be hunted by Sloth, as well.

Are you planning on posting stats (Force and Powers)?

I don't even know what I want the stats to be yet. I would want them to be smitable by a decently prepared team, so long as they are fought one at a time. Yet, I also want them to be powerfull enough to frighten even the most battle-hardened veterans.

One of the big concepts from the movies was that the ghosts are trapped in a heavily-warded mansion so that the characters can avoid confrontations whith them, most of the time. I imagine that the average team would be running behind superwards rather than standing their ground most of the time.

I don't know how many runners would earn Sloth's ire. It stalks those who have done neither harm nor good. While many runners have done no good, they usualy have accomplished plenty of harm. However, I think he's the coolest of those who I have posted and i would be a shame to imclude these

----

Deception - The Liar

The Liar is a large bloated man with a bulbous , a naked torso, and tattered shorts. He has no eyes, no ears, and no nose. In place of those features are extra mouths. Mouths cover his forehead, his scalp, his torso, his arms, and his legs. In total, he has 1,001 mouths. They all speak in unison, making contradictory statements, none of which are completely true.

----

Graft - The Torn Prince

Graft is the sin of using wealth and power to exploit the work of others rather than working oneself. Grafters are parasites who constantly take and never create. Graft is the sin of landlords, bankers, capitolists, loan sharks, extortionists, and corrupt polititions.

In Life, The Torn Prince was an french aristocrat known for making loans to needy peasants and then charging exorbinant interest. When the debtors couldn't pay that were made to work off the debt. He became wealthy and powerful from the sweat and bllod of others. Then a little thing called the French Revolution happened. While most Aristocrats were beheaded, the Usurer's debtors wouldn't have that. Instead they tied his limbs to horses and then sent the equines running in opposite directions.

The Torn Prince appears to be a nobel arsitocrat in a purple velvet longcoat and a poofy white shirt. However, his limbs and not attached to his torso. His legs walk ahead of his floating body while his arms levitate off to his sides.

When he attacks, he sends his arms out ahead of him to strike and strangle his victims.
hyzmarca
Theft - The Serpent Tamer

Theft's Avatar appears to be a oned armed metahuman in dusty robes. Around his or her body coils a giant cobra, which extends out in place of his missing left arm.
If one were to look under the robes one would see that the cobra is not simply coiled around the specter, it is joined with it. The Serpent Tamer attacks its victims with a toxic bite and then its metahuman form disintegrates. It coils around its victims and attaches itself to them, stealing their shapes along with their lives.

----

Pandery - The Pimp

Pandery is the sin of enticing others to commit sins of incontinence. Panderers may go their entire lives without indulging in a single vice but vice is their life none the less.

The Pimp appears as the most gaudy fashion criminal one can imagine, with a long pink fur coat, a neon green feathered cowboy hat, purple sunglasses, giant dismond rings, and a supremely tacky vanity cane. He is too absurd to appear dangerous.

By his side are between two and five beautiful women wearing nothing but thong bikinies. They slaughter the Pimp's victims while he watches own without lifiting a finger. The women are, of course, nothing more than extensions of the specter.
nick012000
So any information on what Deception, Theft, and Pandery did in life that made them turn out like this?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (nick012000)
So any information on what Deception, Theft, and Pandery did in life that made them turn out like this?

I have found that creating 13 (now 14) interesting backstories is a rather daunting task but I do have some ideas.

Theft was a petty thief in an Islamic nation that adhered to a strict interperation of Sharia. We he has caught pickpocketing, the arm that he stole with was lopped off. Later in his life, he turned to more sophicistated forms of theft, stealing credit card numbers and personal information rather than physical goods.

Pandery was a classic 70's street pimp. He was left alone by the police and allowed to do his job because he often acted as an informent against the more dangerous criminals. His name was Whitey Bear.

Deception was former United States President Bill Clinton. "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky." "It depends on what your definition of is is."
Anyone can lie to you when you don't know what the truth is. It takes a true master to lie believably when you know that he is lying.


northern lights
all i can think of from the original posting was the mad passions, tie that in with horrors and i'll make a road trip to play.

read voices from the past from the H books, and i think you'll get a good deal on interaction with the things.
caramel frappuccino
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Deception was former United States President Bill Clinton.  "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky." "It depends on what your definition of is is." 
Anyone can lie to you when you don't know what the truth is. It takes a true master to lie believably when you know that he is lying.

Haha.

Personally, I think Joseph Goebbels is a better candidate for Deception than ol' Bubba.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (caramel frappuccino @ Oct 31 2005, 08:06 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Deception was former United States President Bill Clinton.  "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky." "It depends on what your definition of is is." 
Anyone can lie to you when you don't know what the truth is. It takes a true master to lie believably when you know that he is lying.

Haha.

Personally, I think Joseph Goebbels is a better candidate for Deception than ol' Bubba.

Evil Nazi ghosts are too cliche. They're like evil Nazi vampires, evil Nazi scientists, evil Nazi immortal elves, evil Nazi Nazis and evil Nazi living severed heads.

Needless to say, I was running out of ideas.


------

Hypocrisy - The Zealous Emperor

Do as I say not as I do is the credo of the hypocrit, who's actions deny his words. Hypocrits are inconsistant in their dealings with others and with themselves. They violate their own values without care while acting as a harsh judge against others who do the same. The worst of all hypocrits deny their true nature even to themselves.

In his life, the Zealous Emperor was Theodosius the last Soverign of Rome. He made Christianity the official religion of Rome, outlawing all others. He was selctive in implementing his harsh laws. They were more often political tools than attempts to convert the unfaithful. Nevertheless, Theodosius was successful in stamping out paganism in Rome. He also indirectly causes the split of the Roman empire by having two heirs.

The Zealous Emperor appears to be a distinguished and politically powerful Mediterranean man. However, unlike most humans he is inside out. In response to his hypocricy in life, his internal organs, bones and muscles are on display for all to see while his skin faces inward. All can see his hidden nature while his veneer is reflected back at him.

He stalks hypocrits and stangles them his his exposed intestines.

------

Treason - Judas

The the soul of Judas Iscariot was thrown violently down to the metaplane some know as hell, he came face-to-face-to-face-to-face with the fallen angel Lucifer. Standing before his eternal warden, Judas made a fateful decesion; he would not go quietly; he would rage against is destiny. As a final act of defiance and of atonement Judas smote the three-faced angel with all of his might.

Alas, Lucifer is an incarnation of three powerful idols, the Advesary, the Dark King, and The Firebringer. While lesser dieties may have been wounded by Judas' unexpected assualt, Lucifer was simply delighted. Lucifer saw Judas as a kindred being who was cheated by destiny. Rather that tormenting Judas as was his job, he enlighted Judas with the terrible truth.

When Lucifer betrayed YHWH, he was just a pawn in a grander plan. He was punished for doing what was created to do. Likewise, Judas's betrayal was integral to Jehova's plan for Jesus. Judas was simply a pawn doing with he was destined to do. The fact that Jesus was meant to forgive all mortal sins yet refused to forgive Judas made this relevation all the more unbearable.

Over time, the two became close friends and they formulated a daring plan. As a part of this plan, Lucifer sacrificed all the condemed souls in his real to elevate Judas, transforming him into a being somewhere between a god and a mortal's spirit. He became an undying Specter, the essence of Treason itself, the Anti-Christ.

No longer a condemed soul, Judas was able to escape Lucifer's metaplaner prision and return to the mortal world to wreck vengence upon his former pupetmasters.

His first acts were to create the other twelve members of Hell's Zodiac. In an act of artistic irony, Judas capurted the souls of his former friends, the other eleven Apostles, and transformed them into incarnations of Sin using his newfound power. Later, made made the original Avatar of Hypocricy by corrupting the soul of Saint Paul, Father of the Catholic Church and first Pope of Rome. The seeds of coruption planted within the Christian faith through Paul remain to this day, waiting to bloom.

Judas is the most powerful of all 13 Avatars. As the Anti-Christ, his power is equivialnt to JC's. Fortunatly for us mere mortals, that isn't nearly as powerful as most people believe.

Judas is immune to all attacks, mundane or magical, except for those carried out by one who who has betrayed a true friend in heart and in deed and who has, in turn, been betrayed by a friend.

Judas can appear to be anyone or anthing. However, in his prefered form he is an average looking human man with a faint circular mark on his neck, reminent from his death by hanging. In this form he carries thirteen blood-stained silver coins, each engraved with the sigil of one of the 13 Avatars of Sin.

-----

PS - I refer to YHWH and Jehova speeratly because my Shadowrun-Christian cosmology follows the Marcionical doctorine that the Old Testement deity and New Testiment deity are, in fact, seperate beings. I refer to the old god as YHWH and the new as Jehova to keep things simple.
However, it further skews through the twisted path of heresy with the fact that YHWH are Jehova are part of a conspiritoral pantheon (this is actually supported by YHWH's use of plural pronouns to refer to Himself on certain occasions in the Bible as well as historical evidence that demonstrates the polytheistic roots of judaism) which intends to transform all of metahumanity into a mindless karma machines to feed them and that Lucifer is in fact the good guy in the grand scheme of things.

-edited for spelling
hyzmarca
The Zorba Mansion

To the naked eye, Cyrus Zorba's mansion appears to be a mundane, if extravogant, two-story 20th century home renovated to include the latest modern technolgy.
The home has seven bedrooms and six baths, a large dining room and well equiped kitchen. Each room of the mansion is decorated around a different theme, showcasing Zorba's extravagant collections.

The basement of the Zorba mansion contains equipment for Cyrus's research, including full chemestry and alchemy shops.

The unattached garage houses Zorba's collection of 9 antiquite cars as well as 4 modern roadsters and a large van. It also has all of the equipment one would expect in a full automoblie shop.

A hanger at the nearby private airstrip contains a full aircraft shop, several antique propeller driven birds, a huey helecopter, an original U2 spy plane, an SR77-black bird, as well as a few modern jets and thunderbirds.

If one were to look at the Zorba mansion on Astral he would see a complex maze of very powerfuul wards designed to herd and confuse astrally active beings. The wards are placed in a way tat is incongruant with the structure of the house. Dual natured being have a great difficulty navigating as attempts to avoid wards lead them into solid walls and attempts to avoid walls lead them into wards.

[The wards each possess a force of 27]

[ Within the Zorba Mansion Duel Natured creatures including percieving magicians and materialized spirits) recieve a +3 modifier to all tasks that involve movement]



---------

The glasses

The glasses appear to be giant biolculars rather than goggles. They are large, very bulky, and made of shiny silver metal. Between the non-magnifying lenses are several layers of unique astrally sensitive dyes.

The dyes and lumicent when exposed to astral forms. As a result, those who look through the glasses can "see" astral beings. However, the glasses are disorienting and reduce depth percption.

[Those who wear the glasses gain the ability to see purely astral beings without being astrally present. They cannot see auras and cannot they assense anything. Those wearing the glasses recieve a +3 modifier to all visual tasks.]


---------

The Order

The Order is a secret iniatory group created to hunt down and destroy the Zodiac.
Due to the nature of the Zodiac Avatars, the Order is comprised of some very special people. All of them were at one time the most depraved of sinners. Some have repented and see their service as a method of attonment. Some continue to revel in their depravity and see their service as a way to gain power.
No crime is too heinous of the Order's recruiters. Their ranks include the worst of the worst.

The Order is divided into 13 task forces, each made up of a different type of sinner and dedicated to hunting a particular Avatar.

The leaders of The Order recently came to the conclusion that destroying the Avatars was not the answer. Doing so would only damn more souls to replace them.
When Cyrus Zorba proposed capturing them they agreed to provide him with support.

The Order is responsible for all the wards in Cyrus' Mansion.

------------

The Eye of Hell

Cyrus found the Eye of Hell beneeth a Russian monestary using instructions encoded in a letter written by the mad monk Rasputin.

The eye itself is room sized focus made of gold and limestone. In the conter of the room is a golden globe with a radius of 13 decimeters.

Cyrus had the room dug up and transplaneted to a hidden subbasement beneeth his mansion.

No one knows how the focus works but it seems to react to the presence of the Avatars. No one knows what the focus does but with a name like The Eye of Hell, it probably isn't pleasent.
ShadowDragon8685
Mindless karma machines?

Haah. Sounds like a religious version of The Matrix. smile.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Nov 1 2005, 02:37 PM)
Mindless karma machines?

Haah. Sounds like a religious version of The Matrix. smile.gif

Even gods need karma, but gods can't earn karma it has to be given freely by metahumans. The problem with the whole garden of Eden set up was that there really weren't many ways to earn karma there. Now killing the infidels, that nets you big karma. YHWH, Jehova and Allah figured that they could make three religions, pit their followers against one anothers, and then split the karma given to them through mandated worship. The arangment works surprisingly well.
ShadowDragon8685
That's twisted.

Where do the Great Dragons fit in on this scheme, then? Comparable to the gods?
Lindt
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Now killing the infidels, that nets you big karma. YWEH, Jehova and Allah figured that they could make three religions, pit their followers against one anothers, and then split the karma given to them through mandated worship. The arangment works surprisingly well.

Thank you for brightening my day.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Nov 1 2005, 03:12 PM)
That's twisted.

Where do the Great Dragons fit in on this scheme, then? Comparable to the gods?

Gods are simply higher order free spirits that have elevated themselves above normal free spirits by becoming the emobdiment of certain namegiver ideals (Totems, Idols, ect).

Dragons know what the gods really are and they are unimpressed. While metahumans have a tendancy to worship beings of great power, dragons have seen gods rise and fall over the years. The weaker gods are outclassed by the more powerful dragons. However, the most powerful of gods are on par with the most powerful of Horrors, perhaps even more so within their home metaplanes. That being said, there is a good reason that gods don't walk the earth out in the open. To so would weaken them immeasurably and leave them vulnerable to their enemies. Instead they use their followers to fight and gain power.

Gods are not eternal. They are bound by the same cycles of creation and destruction as every other being. They can and do die from violence. They wither from entropy when namegivers forget about them and they lose their supply of karma. They are replaced with new gods.
PlatonicPimp
I love it! I've been looking for a good way to incorporate theology into SR without making it a hand waving "Beleif " Issue. I intend to steal and modify. Thanks!
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Lindt)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 1 2005, 04:03 PM)
Now killing the infidels, that nets you big karma.  YWEH, Jehova and Allah figured that they could make three religions, pit their followers against one anothers, and then split the karma given to them through mandated worship. The arangment works surprisingly well.

Thank you for brightening my day.

I am glad that I can warm hearts with my blasphemy.

PlatonicPimp, feel free to post any modifications you make. I am curious as to how they'll work out.
DocMortand
Heh I may use some of these avatars in astral quests. Talk about horror in a twisted realm....

Very neat job.
PlatonicPimp
Well for one, the reason that saying the name of god in hebrew religions was taboo is because you weren't supposed to know it. names have power, after all, and while Yhwh and jehovah are not the spirits true names, enough study of kaballah could let you find those names out, and potentially bind the spirits in question.

Jesus was actually the peaceful, neighbor loving proto-hippie his personal sermons would suggest, but after he died Jehovah (A master Shedim) possessed his corpse and turned his popular peace movement into the religion we know today. You might recognize the scheme. (Ibn Eisa). In fact , all three spirits are powerful master Shedim. Note how many of these religions have messiahs that rise from the dead, either documented or promised to come.

The three spirits invovled have been playing this game throughout all os known history in the middle east, creating new religions as old ones become too dominant. As one gains prominence, the others create new religions to stir up the status quo and casue the religious wars to start again. The reason why is that they require extreme amounts of karma to survive the downcycle of Mana. That's also why they aren't uber-powerful, despite the massive Karma inflow. Most of it was spent in reituals to allow them limited existence in a Mana-free enviornment.

PlatonicPimp
Also note that Magic study is forbidden or highly frowned apon by both christianity and islam. This is because those who study magic have the potential to learn the truth.

However, the problem that these spirits run into is that certain people who are ostensibly worshiping them are in fact following an Idol. The religions they started are so large that not everyone agrees on beleif. Those who beleive strongly without great trainging (read, brainwashing) can become saints. Saints embody the ideals that the false mythology puts forward, and beleive that their power is based on their go when it is not. Sometimes these saints have an inkling of the truth, but beleive in their go (Idol) so strongly that they try to "Resuce " the religion from the "Demonic" influence. This is dangerous to the spirits involved in the short term, should the saint learn the whole truth, they might be able to destroy the spirit. However, in the long term, those whose beleif is dogmatic will convert the formerly heretical sect into mainstream religion, bringing those los tback into the fold. This is what happened during the protestant reformation.
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