Me and my group got used to playing chars for awhile, making them a little higher end. Getting used to that, when we try SR4, rather than do full conversions(ie. remaking them, then dumping on karma...we're just learning the system and it might be nightmare to try to convert totally), we decided to try 450 BPs to start, to reflect this.
Seems that the old archetypes(SR3), had more Bps under the new system, but after reading some threads, it looks like the stuff has been 'lowered' so to speak. IE, a pistols 4 in the new system would nearly be pistols 6 in the old system.
Would 450 starting BPs be decent for slightly esablished characters already, is it too much, or too little? 400 seems good for slightly more wet behind the ears runners, or runners who have a few under their belts perhaps.
Or is it easier to build with 400 then tack on Karma representing slightly more 'been there, done that...at least a little' runners?
After reading conversion threads, i am not even going to attempt full out conversions til we learn the new system better.
Full Version: Chargen BPs
An extra 50 BP can equate to an extra 5 attribute points to spread around, but you're still going to run into the 200 BP attribute cap in chargen (unless you expand that too).
An extra 50 BP can't be sunk into any more Positive Qualities since they, too, are capped (at 35). You might want to raise that cap too.
An extra 50 BP can't go into more gear because that's already capped at 50. I suppose you could look at it like "I get free gear." Yet another cap you could raise.
Spells and Complex Forms are capped by their respective skill levels, so no direct help there.
Really all 50 BPs could mean to you is 5 more points in (at least two) skill groups, or about 12 more points in an assortment of active skills. Alternatively you could load up on Contacts or one of the special Attributes. A high Edge is pretty darn handy, and 50 BPs plus another 15 from somewhere can get you maxed out in that.
The book mentions that 500 BPs approximates a "seasoned" runner, by the way. I haven't done a cost analysis yet (I'm sure someone has, likely in a conversion thread) but my initial gut feeling is that an SR3 starting character would be worth about 500 and have correspondingly higher chargen caps.
An extra 50 BP can't be sunk into any more Positive Qualities since they, too, are capped (at 35). You might want to raise that cap too.
An extra 50 BP can't go into more gear because that's already capped at 50. I suppose you could look at it like "I get free gear." Yet another cap you could raise.
Spells and Complex Forms are capped by their respective skill levels, so no direct help there.
Really all 50 BPs could mean to you is 5 more points in (at least two) skill groups, or about 12 more points in an assortment of active skills. Alternatively you could load up on Contacts or one of the special Attributes. A high Edge is pretty darn handy, and 50 BPs plus another 15 from somewhere can get you maxed out in that.
The book mentions that 500 BPs approximates a "seasoned" runner, by the way. I haven't done a cost analysis yet (I'm sure someone has, likely in a conversion thread) but my initial gut feeling is that an SR3 starting character would be worth about 500 and have correspondingly higher chargen caps.
I think others have commented that 500ish seems to about the normal SR3 range, although i think 450BP is closer though maybe a bit on the downside. Depends on character type, and which chargen system you used in SR3. Even more it depends on how good you have wrapped your head around powergaming a SR4 chargen vs. how good you were in SR3.
If you try build an SR4 character like you were playing SR3, which is typically where you'd expect a player just learning SR4 to start from, you can easily gimp a 500BP PC.
EDIT:
If you try build an SR4 character like you were playing SR3, which is typically where you'd expect a player just learning SR4 to start from, you can easily gimp a 500BP PC.
EDIT:
| QUOTE |
| An extra 50 BP can equate to an extra 5 attribute points to spread around, but you're still going to run into the 200 BP attribute cap in chargen (unless you expand that too). |
It changes by itself. The limit is calculated as 50% of the chargen BP. So it'd be 250BP for the 8 attributes of a 500BP PC.
We're not really going for total powergaming or anything, just slightly more seasoned runners. We built a couple 450 BP pcs, and on paper they don't seem to bad, but I more or less wanted some opinions of some folks who maybe used it. 500 BPs seems quite a lot under the new system. But i have heard a few places the SR3 folks were more in the 500 range.
We're not totally going for a perfect conversion, tho. I guess the best bet would be to try to run with the 450 BP and see how balanced it is. Trial and error I suppose.
This lets you dump 225 into your starting attributes...220 technically since 5 BPs dont give anything there. Extra two points really doesn't seem bad. The real band seems to be the extra 30 BPs you can toss around for skills and contacts, and Edge, of course...which to me make up a bit more of the meat of a more seasoned runner than attributes, anyway.
We're not totally going for a perfect conversion, tho. I guess the best bet would be to try to run with the 450 BP and see how balanced it is. Trial and error I suppose.
This lets you dump 225 into your starting attributes...220 technically since 5 BPs dont give anything there. Extra two points really doesn't seem bad. The real band seems to be the extra 30 BPs you can toss around for skills and contacts, and Edge, of course...which to me make up a bit more of the meat of a more seasoned runner than attributes, anyway.
Well if you buy up one of the Attributes to thier top point it costs 25BP, so that extra 5BP could get used.
However as i've mentioned in other threads if you spend all of that 225BP available on just the 8 Phys/Mental Attributes there is a good chance you are short-changing your character somewhere else.
EDIT: And for quickly twiddling to learn how things shape up creating characters i highly recommend getting your hands on one of the eletronic chargen aids in the Community forum. I've heard good things about Daegann's stand alone chargen program, the Excel/Open Office sheet i've helped with is linked in my sig, and there are a couple of other Excel sheets too there.
However as i've mentioned in other threads if you spend all of that 225BP available on just the 8 Phys/Mental Attributes there is a good chance you are short-changing your character somewhere else.
EDIT: And for quickly twiddling to learn how things shape up creating characters i highly recommend getting your hands on one of the eletronic chargen aids in the Community forum. I've heard good things about Daegann's stand alone chargen program, the Excel/Open Office sheet i've helped with is linked in my sig, and there are a couple of other Excel sheets too there.
I am in a group and we use 450 BP everyone has made nice rounded characters useing that amount.
I have played at making other toons and yes I can make some pretty cool guys but for the game I try to keep things rounded out because this is a role-playing game and in game advancement is fun.
As to what 50 BP will do for you I see no one mentioned you can be meta-human for free with BP left over.
If your not out to make I kill you by looking at you then 450 BP will make some nice characters.
On average I use 2 skill groups and 4 to 6 other active skills most skill and groups range around 4.
Knowledge/language skills average about 6 to 9 range runs between 3 and 4.
Qualities pos run about 20-25 neg run about 25-30 and my gm has said as he finds an opening in his game he is gonna use our negatives against us some he already has.
Most attributes run between 3-5 unmodified then you toss in racil and cyber/bio but I only spend BP on 3-5 points per att.
Lastly gear I use between 20 and 50 BP in cash depending on my needs for that character being magical/technomancer uses some of my money BP so those type of characters get less cash while mundane humans get more sams and hackers I tend to give more for the cyber/bio I use.
All in all I think my guys are well rounded and yes I have one (I and most of you) would call a munchkin he's got cyber arms legs and torso but hey he's legal at 450 BP.
I also have the gear guy aka the duck who has just about everything one might need on a run but again legal at 450 BP.
So I think 450 BP is ok for a experienced character.
400 BP average
500 BP advanced
wet behind the ears 350 BP
vetran 650+ but that is my opinion as a vetran would have like 10 -20 skills at 4 to 5 all att. at 4-5 before racial/cyber/bio and more than likely the preverbial duck gear out the butt cause he has learned to stock lots of different gear in many different safehouses so s/he is ready to go asap.
well hope a brief run down of my characters was usefull and remember it's just a game have fun play nice don't argue alot.
I have played at making other toons and yes I can make some pretty cool guys but for the game I try to keep things rounded out because this is a role-playing game and in game advancement is fun.
As to what 50 BP will do for you I see no one mentioned you can be meta-human for free with BP left over.
If your not out to make I kill you by looking at you then 450 BP will make some nice characters.
On average I use 2 skill groups and 4 to 6 other active skills most skill and groups range around 4.
Knowledge/language skills average about 6 to 9 range runs between 3 and 4.
Qualities pos run about 20-25 neg run about 25-30 and my gm has said as he finds an opening in his game he is gonna use our negatives against us some he already has.
Most attributes run between 3-5 unmodified then you toss in racil and cyber/bio but I only spend BP on 3-5 points per att.
Lastly gear I use between 20 and 50 BP in cash depending on my needs for that character being magical/technomancer uses some of my money BP so those type of characters get less cash while mundane humans get more sams and hackers I tend to give more for the cyber/bio I use.
All in all I think my guys are well rounded and yes I have one (I and most of you) would call a munchkin he's got cyber arms legs and torso but hey he's legal at 450 BP.
I also have the gear guy aka the duck who has just about everything one might need on a run but again legal at 450 BP.
So I think 450 BP is ok for a experienced character.
400 BP average
500 BP advanced
wet behind the ears 350 BP
vetran 650+ but that is my opinion as a vetran would have like 10 -20 skills at 4 to 5 all att. at 4-5 before racial/cyber/bio and more than likely the preverbial duck gear out the butt cause he has learned to stock lots of different gear in many different safehouses so s/he is ready to go asap.
well hope a brief run down of my characters was usefull and remember it's just a game have fun play nice don't argue alot.
full cyberlimbs won't make us think you're a munchkin. in SR4, that limits your attributes pretty badly. although, i suppose you will be able to take lots of physical damage.
still, i can't say i'm impressed by that, really... more Hit Points (or damage boxes, in this case) don't make someone better, they just make you suck for longer
(that is, provided they sucked in the first place... if they were already good, then Hit Points will obviously let them be good for longer
)
still, i can't say i'm impressed by that, really... more Hit Points (or damage boxes, in this case) don't make someone better, they just make you suck for longer
(that is, provided they sucked in the first place... if they were already good, then Hit Points will obviously let them be good for longer
)
I wasn't out to impress just showing that 450 BP did alow for some nice characters.
And cybrerlimbs suck? human max is 6 cyber arms start at 3 and adding 4 points on is no problem so at chargen I have body agi str at 7 1 higher than human max how does that suck?
Remember the rules do say cyber/bio can push you past racial max.
So out of the 8 att. 3 are over max leaveing only 5 I need to raise useing karma.
And cybrerlimbs suck? human max is 6 cyber arms start at 3 and adding 4 points on is no problem so at chargen I have body agi str at 7 1 higher than human max how does that suck?
Remember the rules do say cyber/bio can push you past racial max.
So out of the 8 att. 3 are over max leaveing only 5 I need to raise useing karma.
have you looked at muscle replacement lately?
and have you considered the implications of cyberlimbs on anything other than a normal human?
muscle replacement 4 costs 20k and allows that human to hit their racial max in both agility and strength, costing 4 essence for basic grade. add in titanium bone lacing for 1.5 essence and +3 body for damage resistance and +1 armor, and that's another 40k for a total of 60k
and 5.5 essence.
now, to do that with cyberlimbs, you need:
2 Full Arms (1 essence each, 15k each)
2 Full Legs (1 essence and 15k each)
1 Torso (1.5 essence and 20k)
1 Skull (.75 essence and 10k)
for a total of 90k and 6.25 essence. starting to notice any problems yet?
now then, let's add in the upgrade costs (since those limbs are all at 3 right now). this is for 7 strength and agility, and 6 body. note that to get this, the muscle replacement needs only 3 strength, agility, and body.
arms: another 2,600 each. 4 capacity each remaining.
legs: another 2,600 each. 9 capacity each remaining.
torso: not possible. drop one attribute of your choice by 1, costing either 2,400 or 2,350 depending on which attribute you sacrifice. i will assume the body will be dropped 1.
Skull: yeah, right. you can put only 4 points worth of enhancements on it. we'll ignore body, and go with 2 agility, 2 strength. 1,000
additional cost: 8,600
now then, you actually only have an overall strength of 6.6 (rounded down to 6), overall agility of 6.6 (again, rounds down to 6), and a body of 5.3 (rounds down to 5).
assuming you aim for overall 7 in agility and strength, and 6 in body, that's another 2 points in agility and strength somewhere, and 4 points in body somewhere. that's another 8 points off of your capacity (we'll put it in the legs). and costs another 1,800 to pull off.
in order to really pull off the full effect of duplicating the muscle replacement/titanium bone lacing, you also need 6 points total of armor somewhere amongst your limbs: that's another 12 points off your capacity, and another 1,800 to do, which means you have 6 points of capacity left over, you are .25 essence worth of dead, and you have spent 102.2k to match it. your 7 body plan would also require that you give up 4 of your remaining capacity and 800 although at this point, that's no biggie.
like i said, cyberlimbs are not munchkin in SR4, they are actually not as good as other things (plus for added fun, you could use some bioware stuff that i probably haven't even considered at 1/2 essence cost if you go the muscle replacement route, whereas full cyberlimbs won't allow you to use any bioware).
and have you considered the implications of cyberlimbs on anything other than a normal human?
muscle replacement 4 costs 20k and allows that human to hit their racial max in both agility and strength, costing 4 essence for basic grade. add in titanium bone lacing for 1.5 essence and +3 body for damage resistance and +1 armor, and that's another 40k for a total of 60k
and 5.5 essence.now, to do that with cyberlimbs, you need:
2 Full Arms (1 essence each, 15k each)
2 Full Legs (1 essence and 15k each)
1 Torso (1.5 essence and 20k)
1 Skull (.75 essence and 10k)
for a total of 90k and 6.25 essence. starting to notice any problems yet?
now then, let's add in the upgrade costs (since those limbs are all at 3 right now). this is for 7 strength and agility, and 6 body. note that to get this, the muscle replacement needs only 3 strength, agility, and body.
arms: another 2,600 each. 4 capacity each remaining.
legs: another 2,600 each. 9 capacity each remaining.
torso: not possible. drop one attribute of your choice by 1, costing either 2,400 or 2,350 depending on which attribute you sacrifice. i will assume the body will be dropped 1.
Skull: yeah, right. you can put only 4 points worth of enhancements on it. we'll ignore body, and go with 2 agility, 2 strength. 1,000
additional cost: 8,600
now then, you actually only have an overall strength of 6.6 (rounded down to 6), overall agility of 6.6 (again, rounds down to 6), and a body of 5.3 (rounds down to 5).
assuming you aim for overall 7 in agility and strength, and 6 in body, that's another 2 points in agility and strength somewhere, and 4 points in body somewhere. that's another 8 points off of your capacity (we'll put it in the legs). and costs another 1,800 to pull off.
in order to really pull off the full effect of duplicating the muscle replacement/titanium bone lacing, you also need 6 points total of armor somewhere amongst your limbs: that's another 12 points off your capacity, and another 1,800 to do, which means you have 6 points of capacity left over, you are .25 essence worth of dead, and you have spent 102.2k to match it. your 7 body plan would also require that you give up 4 of your remaining capacity and 800 although at this point, that's no biggie.
like i said, cyberlimbs are not munchkin in SR4, they are actually not as good as other things (plus for added fun, you could use some bioware stuff that i probably haven't even considered at 1/2 essence cost if you go the muscle replacement route, whereas full cyberlimbs won't allow you to use any bioware).
actualy, thats a little inacurate.
You get a basic cyberlimb with strength, agility, and body 3. You can upgrade this to 6, or up to 10 with a cyber-torso (limited to 7 at chargen by availibility).
Cyberlimbs suck, in comparison to characters with high physical atributes. A min-maxer will get muscle toner+augmentation, as the most cost-efective strength+agility increase. getting 7 agility is easy- .4 essence and 16k, with bioware (which may be only .2 essence if your cybered up). with a cyberlimb, you need both the limb and the torso, or 2.5 Essece and 36k.
but if you get a hand blown off from a gernade? go get the cyberlimb. having a weaker hand is always better than no hand at all.
You get a basic cyberlimb with strength, agility, and body 3. You can upgrade this to 6, or up to 10 with a cyber-torso (limited to 7 at chargen by availibility).
Cyberlimbs suck, in comparison to characters with high physical atributes. A min-maxer will get muscle toner+augmentation, as the most cost-efective strength+agility increase. getting 7 agility is easy- .4 essence and
16k, with bioware (which may be only .2 essence if your cybered up). with a cyberlimb, you need both the limb and the torso, or 2.5 Essece and 36k. but if you get a hand blown off from a gernade? go get the cyberlimb. having a weaker hand is always better than no hand at all.
| QUOTE |
| 2 Full Arms (1 essence each, 15k each) 2 Full Legs (1 essence and 15k each) 1 Torso (1.5 essence and 20k) 1 Skull (.75 essence and 10k) for a total of 90k and 6.25 essence. starting to notice any problems yet? |
Hum well lets see first off I am making a legal character at chargen so with that said lets rip apart your post.
Skull not aloud so 2 arms 2 ess 2 legs 2 ess torso 1.5 ess so 5.5 ess total.
| QUOTE |
| muscle replacement 4 costs 20k and allows that human to hit their racial max in both agility and strength, costing 4 essence for basic grade. add in titanium bone lacing for 1.5 essence and +3 body for damage resistance and +1 armor, and that's another 40k for a total of 60k and 5.5 essence. |
Muscle replacement 4 not aloud 2 max.
Titanium bone lacing not aloud Aluminum max.
| QUOTE |
| now then, let's add in the upgrade costs (since those limbs are all at 3 right now). this is for 7 strength and agility, and 6 body. note that to get this, the muscle replacement needs only 3 strength, agility, and body. arms: another 2,600 each. 4 capacity each remaining. legs: another 2,600 each. 9 capacity each remaining. torso: not possible. drop one attribute of your choice by 1, costing either 2,400 or 2,350 depending on which attribute you sacrifice. i will assume the body will be dropped 1. Skull: yeah, right. you can put only 4 points worth of enhancements on it. we'll ignore body, and go with 2 agility, 2 strength. 1,000 additional cost: 8,600 |
Str. + Agi upgraded to 7 means I need to add +4 to each cost is 4 times 250 equals 1,000 or 2k for arms and 2k for legs for Str. and the same for Agi. for a total of 8k to hit 7's.
Capacity is 15 in each of the arms each arm uses 4 per Str. 4 per Agi. that is a total of 8 minus that from 15 that leaves me 7 capacity in each arm.
Capacity is 20 in each of the legs each leg uses 4 per Str. 4 per Agi. that is a total of 8 minus that from 20 that leaves me 12 capacity in each leg.
Capacity is 10 in the torso which uses 4 for Str. 4 for Agi. that is a total of 8 minus that from 10 that leaves me 2 capacity in the torso this totals 4k.
Body I add 3 on one arm and 4 on the other arm for the remaining 7 capacity.
Then add 4 each to the legs for 8 of the 12 remaining leaveing me 4 capacity in my legs.
Add body to the torso is 2 useing the last of my torso capacity.
Now the body mods cost me arms 1,400 legs 1,600 torso 400 total 3,400.
total it up 3,400 + 4,000 + 8,000 = 15,400 in upgrades.
Agi. and Str. = 7 each no rounding in anyway needed all are equal.
Bod. is 3/4 4/4 2/2 so a total average of what 3.8 or so rounded down to 3 so bod. is a 6 sorry I was off on bod. by 1 my bad and have fixed it.
Mods take no ess. only capacity so still at 5.5 ess. alphaed out to 4.4 for 160k total in cyber parts add in 30,800 for alpha upgrades and total cost hits 190,800.
Skull mods nada as skull is out of available range.
Now to raise the bod. aluminum bone max aloud 1 ess .8 at alpha cost 15k 30k at alpha add 30k to the 190,800 for 220,800 and a +2 to bod. thus putting bod. at 8.
Ess is 4.4 + .8 which equals 5.2 NOT DEAD YET!
| QUOTE |
| in order to really pull off the full effect of duplicating the muscle replacement/titanium bone lacing, you also need 6 points total of armor somewhere amongst your limbs: that's another 12 points off your capacity, and another 1,800 to do, which means you have 6 points of capacity left over, you are .25 essence worth of dead, and you have spent 102.2k to match it. your 7 body plan would also require that you give up 4 of your remaining capacity and 800 although at this point, that's no biggie. |
6 points of armor??? titanium bone adds +1/+1 to armor that is all muscle replacement adds nada to armor
| QUOTE |
| like i said, cyberlimbs are not munchkin in SR4, they are actually not as good as other things (plus for added fun, you could use some bioware stuff that i probably haven't even considered at 1/2 essence cost if you go the muscle replacement route, whereas full cyberlimbs won't allow you to use any bioware). |
Your right limbs say no bio nor cyber that takes ess. how ever while skulls/torsos are in this catagory they are considered shells rather than replacements so that being the case if the bio goes with a body part in the torso I see no rule saying I can't have that bio as the no bio rule says limbs nothing about skulls and/or torsos.
Anyway there is the run down not sure who your gm is but s/he is nice to let you use cyber/bio over availablity or if your the gm then your a cool gm letting your players have access to some powerfull cyber/bio.
It's a sad fact, but cyberlimbs have always sucked in SR. They had a chance to fix it, and didn't. It's unfortunate -- if anything, they should be filthily overpowered compared to more subtle/less obvious enhancements, in order to give them a reason for existing. CP:2020 is the only RPG I've seen that really manages to make them usefull enough to justify a character ever wanting one (much less multiples).
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| It's a sad fact, but cyberlimbs have always sucked in SR. |
In case of limb loss, most of runner would consider having one re-growth and come back to previous physical state, instead of having a cyber implant.
It's a sad fact indeed ... But they DO suck
pff limbs have rocked, make a decker with a deck in the leg, cheep and mobile decker with no bulky deck to get shot up, or internalise alot of things to ultimately save essence.
limbs haven't sucked, just the enchancment of limbs beyond default has.
limbs haven't sucked, just the enchancment of limbs beyond default has.
Casazil, you need 6 points of armor because it is divided by 6 (however many cyberlimbs you have).
in order for you to have 7 strength without the cyberskull, you need to have a natural strength of 7 (which kinda defeats the purpose of having the cyberlimbs) or you need to put extra points on the other limbs to make up for it (mind you, i do have to agree that it's rather stupid, RAW, that the strength and agility of your head affect your overall stats, that's the rules).
cybertorso and cyberskull are considered cyberlimbs. thus, it is a house rule (again, one that i would support, but a house rule nonetheless) to allow other cyber/bioware to be placed in them.
the simple fact is that cyberlimbs just aren't all that great. you are better off augmenting your physical stats some other way.
in order for you to have 7 strength without the cyberskull, you need to have a natural strength of 7 (which kinda defeats the purpose of having the cyberlimbs) or you need to put extra points on the other limbs to make up for it (mind you, i do have to agree that it's rather stupid, RAW, that the strength and agility of your head affect your overall stats, that's the rules).
cybertorso and cyberskull are considered cyberlimbs. thus, it is a house rule (again, one that i would support, but a house rule nonetheless) to allow other cyber/bioware to be placed in them.
the simple fact is that cyberlimbs just aren't all that great. you are better off augmenting your physical stats some other way.
| QUOTE |
| in order for you to have 7 strength without the cyberskull, you need to have a natural strength of 7 (which kinda defeats the purpose of having the cyberlimbs) or you need to put extra points on the other limbs to make up for it (mind you, i do have to agree that it's rather stupid, RAW, that the strength and agility of your head affect your overall stats, that's the rules). |
Read your rules again. The attribute used for a given task is the average of all the limbs _involved in the task_.
Now, exactly which strength tests are you planning to involve your head in? (Oh, there are probably one or two, but the vast majority won't.)
Now, body for damage resistance, yes, you'd have to average in the head.
But what about real muscle heads that have a cyberskull installed?
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| Casazil, you need 6 points of armor because it is divided by 6 (however many cyberlimbs you have). |
No. You really don't.
| QUOTE |
| Cyberlimb Enhancements: All cyberlimbs come with Body, Strength, and Agility attributes of 3. Th ese values can only be augmented by cyberlimb enhancements—enhancements from other cyber- or bioware systems have no effect. Cyberlimb enhancements use up the Capacity of the cyberlimb they enhance. The bonus to the enhanced value equals the rating of the enhancement. Only characters with a cybertorso can have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3. When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task (round down). If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb. The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand). |
So that's where it talks baout averaging values for attributes. Armor is not an attribute, and is listed separately:
| QUOTE |
Armor: Armor installed on cyberlimbs is both Ballistic and Impact armor. |
That's why the armor ratings are so low - they all add up. By the time you add 1 point of armor to every limb on your body, you actually have 6 points of armor - the equivalent to having armor cover your entire body (such as with an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit).
The thing where strength enhancements only apply to specific tests and use up capacity is dumb - they should only do one or the other. But the armor problem isn't one because it doesn't work like that.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
| So that's where it talks baout averaging values for attributes. Armor is not an attribute, and is listed separately:
That's why the armor ratings are so low - they all add up. By the time you add 1 point of armor to every limb on your body, you actually have 6 points of armor - the equivalent to having armor cover your entire body (such as with an Urban Explorer Jumpsuit). The thing where strength enhancements only apply to specific tests and use up capacity is dumb - they should only do one or the other. But the armor problem isn't one because it doesn't work like that. -Frank |
Jesus Christ! so I can put, say, 4 armor on each limb (Except head) for a total armor rating of 20/20? I don't think so. Not happening in my campaign. I think that you should average the armor on a cyberlimb just like attributes, except for the head, which acts like a helmet.
Thanks for the back up guys nice to see others interpet the rules the way I read them.
Jaid I agree I would need Str. Agi. in the head if I useally went around headbutting stuff in game but I don't so my guys Str. Agi. is 7 and Bod. is 8.
Yes I can do better using mods the only do this or that unfortunately those items are not aloud at chargen I was going for max at chargen.
Yes I have a char. I am planing as I get the yen to do mass upgrades but that will take me some time to do in game and the approval of the gm for me to find the cyber/bio I want.
And as was pointed out armor is not an attribute.
Now bod. attribute I don't know yes I say it is an 8 yes it gets the head factored into it but I find nothing in the book listing what the bod. value is for a natural head.
So I have no way to know what value to use for rounding out my total bod. so I figure seeing as it is a small area it just don't really bring the over all rating down any.
Jaid I agree I would need Str. Agi. in the head if I useally went around headbutting stuff in game but I don't so my guys Str. Agi. is 7 and Bod. is 8.
Yes I can do better using mods the only do this or that unfortunately those items are not aloud at chargen I was going for max at chargen.
Yes I have a char. I am planing as I get the yen to do mass upgrades but that will take me some time to do in game and the approval of the gm for me to find the cyber/bio I want.
And as was pointed out armor is not an attribute.
Now bod. attribute I don't know yes I say it is an 8 yes it gets the head factored into it but I find nothing in the book listing what the bod. value is for a natural head.
So I have no way to know what value to use for rounding out my total bod. so I figure seeing as it is a small area it just don't really bring the over all rating down any.
actually if you read your man and machine book, it pretty clearly states that for armour, unless the hit is a called shot to a location (in which case you use that locations armour) you average the value of the armour of all limbs.
I'm assuming FrankTrollman never read the rules on armour layering either and probably has a SR with 4 lined jackets on top of each other.
I'm assuming FrankTrollman never read the rules on armour layering either and probably has a SR with 4 lined jackets on top of each other.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Jesus Christ! so I can put, say, 4 armor on each limb (Except head) for a total armor rating of 20/20? I don't think so. Not happening in my campaign. I think that you should average the armor on a cyberlimb just like attributes, except for the head, which acts like a helmet. |
Yes you can but not at chargen.
At Chargen max is 2 each as the availability is rating times 5. (2 x 5 = 10 & 12 is max)
Thus you get 10/10 not all that bad seeing as I can buy armor that is 8/6 with a helmet that is 1/2 for a total armor of 9/8.
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| actually if you read your man and machine book, it pretty clearly states that for armour, unless the hit is a called shot to a location (in which case you use that locations armour) you average the value of the armour of all limbs. I'm assuming FrankTrollman never read the rules on armour layering either and probably has a SR with 4 lined jackets on top of each other. |
WOW you have a man & machine book for 4th edition?????????????????? when did that come out and can you get me one?
Sorry but we are in 4th edition please leave the 3rd edtion rules out of this.
I hope he didn't read the armor layering rules as they no longer exsist in 4th.
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| actually if you read your man and machine book, it pretty clearly states that for armour, unless the hit is a called shot to a location (in which case you use that locations armour) you average the value of the armour of all limbs. I'm assuming FrankTrollman never read the rules on armour layering either and probably has a SR with 4 lined jackets on top of each other. |
Um. No.
Because Man and Machine has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS GAME.
Things from a previous edition don't mean jack diddly squat unless you want to houserule them. New edition, new rules on everything.
F'rex, the armor layering rules changed DRASTICALLY between editions! You can't say anything about armor is the same, because every rule of it has changed.
| QUOTE (Casazil) |
| Now bod. attribute I don't know yes I say it is an 8 yes it gets the head factored into it but I find nothing in the book listing what the bod. value is for a natural head. So I have no way to know what value to use for rounding out my total bod. so I figure seeing as it is a small area it just don't really bring the over all rating down any. |
The bod. value for a natural head is YOUR natural bod attribute. You know, the one you paid for with Build Points? (or the one you left at 1 because you didn't spend any BP on it).
So, if you have Bod 8 for 2 Arms, 2 Legs, and your Torso, and a natural 1 for Body, your average Body would be 6 (41/6, round down).
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
Jesus Christ! so I can put, say, 4 armor on each limb (Except head) for a total armor rating of 20/20? I don't think so. Not happening in my campaign. I think that you should average the armor on a cyberlimb just like attributes, except for the head, which acts like a helmet. |
C'mon, it's not like this is totally unprecedented. Get yourself a troll adept, max magic, and drop it all into mystic armor. Boom, 13 points of armor before AND cumulative with gear. Add an armor jacket (8/6), a helmet (+1/+2) and a ballistic shield (+6/+4), and you've got a troll starting out with 28/25 armor.
If you want, add orthoskin and full body armor later.
Or, if you don't want a totally crippled character speed wise, buy the uber-efficient synaptic booster at level 2, and lose only two armor points.
And, if you want to totally munchkin, go mystic adept, drop a point into magic and learn counterspelling, so you can spend skill point BP on magic resistance instead of power points.
well, i suppose as long as we're sticking with the availability 12 cap, then i guess i can see how limbs might be decent at least. that is, as long as you don't have any large modifiers to your physical attributes. it's hardly broken though... it just really isn't all that impressive, if you ask me.
sure, the extra damage boxes are nice... but it think you're better off buying other cyber, and relying on not getting hit at all instead.
sure, the extra damage boxes are nice... but it think you're better off buying other cyber, and relying on not getting hit at all instead.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| but it think you're better off buying other cyber, and relying on not getting hit at all instead. |
LOL now that I can agree with 100%.
Sadly although time has moved on and cyber has become more available as well as cheaper they still made the rules so that you can only get so much a chargen.
What is funny is if you are gonna go nuts spending money you can get bone augmentation at a level equal to titainum bone and it is legal where as titainum is not go figure.
Also the book clearly states that cyber is for the less fortuneate as those with money go with the bio versions rather than cyber but yet cyber is out of reach at some ratings to us poor runners.
You would think the elite would make it harder to get the bio rather than the cyber especially when cyber is easier to detect than cyber oh well easier to kill them corp goons i can handle that.
| QUOTE |
| http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/products/product.php?i=26000&title=Shadowrun+Fourth+Edition Source material from previous editions will still be compatible. |
yeah....
if you need a 4th edition reference...
read page 149.
"only the highest value applies"
read page 149.
"only the highest value applies"
| QUOTE (Liper) | ||
yeah.... |
Understand, that when FanPro refers to "source" material, they're talking about setting and roleplay fluff. Rules crunch is a different beast. This is why certain suppliments are called "Rules Expansions" and others are called "Sourcebooks". Of course, there's a little bit of bleedthough; you do find some setting/roleplay fluff source material in a "Rules Expansion", and more often than not, there's at least a chapter or two of rules crunch in a "Sourcebook", but in general the label on the book defines what the bulk of the material in the book is.
In short, when they say "source material from previous editions will be compatable" that statement has nothing to do with any rules you would find in a third edition product like Man & Machine.
Agreed but, then read the next post. only the highest value.
Since they haven't defined how armour works on limbs in sr4, you'll have to assume a logical step that has precedence. ie Man and Machine.
Since they haven't defined how armour works on limbs in sr4, you'll have to assume a logical step that has precedence. ie Man and Machine.
Your quote only applies to "worn armor". Internal armor doesn't work like that at all, which is why anyone cares about orthoskin or bone lacing.
The whole quote is:
The whole quote is:
| QUOTE (SR4 @ page 149) |
| If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies. Note that some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor. |
Yes, having an armor point in your head is "like a helmet" and is not "worn armor", so it definately adds in. Meanwhile, applying rules from a previous edition with a different core mechanic makes no sense at all. You might as well be taking the cyberlimb costs from Cybertechnology or the damage codes from Shadowtech.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| Your quote only applies to "worn armor". Internal armor doesn't work like that at all, which is why anyone cares about orthoskin or bone lacing. |
Oddly enough, both Orthoskin and Bone Lacing specifically state that their armor ratings are cumulative with worn armor. Dermal plating uses the phrasing "Confers a bonus to" which amounts to the same thing with different wording.
Had they used either of those two wordings on cyberlimb armor, this discussion wouldn't be taking place. Given the precedent set by the other three armor implants though, I have to agree with Frank on this one.
Had they used either of those two wordings on cyberlimb armor, this discussion wouldn't be taking place. Given the precedent set by the other three armor implants though, I have to agree with Frank on this one.
| QUOTE |
| You might as well be taking the cyberlimb costs from Cybertechnology or the damage codes from Shadowtech. |
Oooh! Oooh! My copy of Shadowtech has a damage code of 4D3 for cyanide. Too bad that format of damage code has been meaningless in every edition past first.
(Made for real fun when the Soucrebook Updates section in the back of the SR2 core rulebook insisted that no changes were needed to use Shadowtech for second edition. They'd been real careful about planing the book to be forwards compatable with the next edition by making every staging in the book 2 like the default staging assumed by 2nd edition's rules, but they goofed on cyanide.)
(Made for real fun when the Soucrebook Updates section in the back of the SR2 core rulebook insisted that no changes were needed to use Shadowtech for second edition. They'd been real careful about planing the book to be forwards compatable with the next edition by making every staging in the book 2 like the default staging assumed by 2nd edition's rules, but they goofed on cyanide.)
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