I'm soon to be GMing a run spawned by the recent cruise ship attacks. This leads me to a couple different questions regarding the UCAS.
1) What is considered International Waters? The only thing I could find on this was that countries basically set their own standard for how far out from their coastline their territory extends and from what I understand it's 200 nautical miles for the US. Is this the same for the UCAS? If not then what is it?
2.) Airspace: What is the procedure for a private aircraft leaving and entering UCAS airspace?
*EDIT* The FAA guidebook says the US airspace extends only to 12 nautical miles beyond the coast, this seems quite close and I wonder if it's the same with international waters.
If I can provide anything else in the way of background information please just let me know.
Thanks in advance.
Full Version: UCAS airspace/international waters
I can't speak for fact, but I believe that according to certain international conventions your supposed to claim about 12 nautical miles out. There are some nations which claim (and enforce) more which can occassionally lead to international incidents. I am pretty sure about the USA's being 12 miles, because i was once on a cruise ship which doubled as a casino, they simply trucked out into international waters (which didn't take very long at all) and than gambled the night away.
Nations' coast guards (or their equivelent) can board in international waters I believe (with some pretty strict caveats that i don't completely understand) but I don't believe Navy's can, the difference being law enforcement versus Military vessels, but that distinction is probably also some what strange.
can any Seamen out there fact-check me?
Nations' coast guards (or their equivelent) can board in international waters I believe (with some pretty strict caveats that i don't completely understand) but I don't believe Navy's can, the difference being law enforcement versus Military vessels, but that distinction is probably also some what strange.
can any Seamen out there fact-check me?
I'm no seaman (harr !) but I can add to Sicarius' comments that notwithstanding how far out to sea a nation claims territory, its forces can still pursue and act in international waters without piracy rules coming into play. It depends on the motive, the target ship and which national (or megacorp) registration it has. A nation's forces can still pursue you into international waters for a crime committed either in their jurisdiction or in international waters against their citizens or assets. Even using military assets to board another nation's ship might not be an act of piracy or war, if proof can be given that this was in response to a violation of an international agreement.
Basically the open sea can be considered a big neutral zone, and the only recourses to piracy or military action there are either armed resistance on the spot or legal claims after the fact. Where it gets interesting is if you cross into the territorial waters of another country while being pursued by somebody else.
As far as aircraft go, I assume that all flights (private and commercial) into any airspace would still be subject to the filing of a flight plan and some level of pre-authorization before one even takes off. Because of the high volume of trans-oceanic flights these days (even more so in SR with reserved approach corridors for suborbitals, spacecraft and the like), you can't simply take off and fly - you need to plan your exact route, get it cleared and then stick to it. If you show up on a coastal station's radar unnanounced, you better have a really good reason like an emergency landing situation. However flight plans can be tampered with, emergencies can be faked and one aircraft could try to "impersonate" another.
I would expect the International Civil Aviation Organization to be in good shape in the SR world, with megacorp representation on the board to include AAA corporate airspace alongside national airspace. They would also advise nations and cities on standardized regulations for aerial drones and the like, by expanding on the existing altitude layer system for each class / size of aircraft.
Basically the open sea can be considered a big neutral zone, and the only recourses to piracy or military action there are either armed resistance on the spot or legal claims after the fact. Where it gets interesting is if you cross into the territorial waters of another country while being pursued by somebody else.
As far as aircraft go, I assume that all flights (private and commercial) into any airspace would still be subject to the filing of a flight plan and some level of pre-authorization before one even takes off. Because of the high volume of trans-oceanic flights these days (even more so in SR with reserved approach corridors for suborbitals, spacecraft and the like), you can't simply take off and fly - you need to plan your exact route, get it cleared and then stick to it. If you show up on a coastal station's radar unnanounced, you better have a really good reason like an emergency landing situation. However flight plans can be tampered with, emergencies can be faked and one aircraft could try to "impersonate" another.
I would expect the International Civil Aviation Organization to be in good shape in the SR world, with megacorp representation on the board to include AAA corporate airspace alongside national airspace. They would also advise nations and cities on standardized regulations for aerial drones and the like, by expanding on the existing altitude layer system for each class / size of aircraft.
| QUOTE (Pinel) |
| I would expect the International Civil Aviation Organization to be in good shape in the SR world, with megacorp representation on the board to include AAA corporate airspace alongside national airspace. |
If the SEC is now run by the Corp Court, I see very little reason for something as commercially important as civil aviation not to be as well.
Don't know how relevant this is, but the distance of territorial water was set by how far a cannon of the old days could shoot. After all, it's not yours if you can't defend it. So maybe that distance stuck as the official distance even though it's no longer a cannon shot thing.
Oh, well if its based on canon then the is no logical reason to it!
from what i understand, there is a new agreement signed that says you can claim out to the continental shelf or so. there is a reason why they are surveying the north pole waters and so on...
Just read up on the incident of when the US electronics plane collided with the Chinese fighters. This is a great example of differing viewpoints of the extent of a country's territorial space. The normal standards are those the US follows, but the Chinese defines their airspace as a bit further out.
For a sec, I thought you were also talking about the maximum height for the airspace for a nation. Because in today's standard, if you're in space/orbit, you're not considered in that country's airspace even if you're above them in the orbit. I guess they'll still follow that standard in the Shadowrun world. If that's the case, the surborbital flights do not have to be registered, only the points where they are actually in the atmosphere (which is also up to interpretation). Though, I can see several (international/corp) sponsored bodies of authorities being used to track for flights anyway just to avoid collisions with other vessels (and space debris).
edit: An example from today is when the Chinese launched their manned spacecraft. The US via Norad offered help in watching their path for any space debris. If I recall correctly from the article, the Chinese accepted this gesture. Anyway, I can see something similar in the Srun world except with maybe whatever is the heir to Norad, or something similar. Plus, each individual corp/group/nation having their own agencies for tracking too possibly. But, oh what fun a hacker can try to do with all this.
For a sec, I thought you were also talking about the maximum height for the airspace for a nation. Because in today's standard, if you're in space/orbit, you're not considered in that country's airspace even if you're above them in the orbit. I guess they'll still follow that standard in the Shadowrun world. If that's the case, the surborbital flights do not have to be registered, only the points where they are actually in the atmosphere (which is also up to interpretation). Though, I can see several (international/corp) sponsored bodies of authorities being used to track for flights anyway just to avoid collisions with other vessels (and space debris).
edit: An example from today is when the Chinese launched their manned spacecraft. The US via Norad offered help in watching their path for any space debris. If I recall correctly from the article, the Chinese accepted this gesture. Anyway, I can see something similar in the Srun world except with maybe whatever is the heir to Norad, or something similar. Plus, each individual corp/group/nation having their own agencies for tracking too possibly. But, oh what fun a hacker can try to do with all this.
Laws of the Sea.
Internal Waters is the term where you can exclude everyone. Territorial Waters, which is the 12 mile limit, is where the country's full laws come into effect as though it was on land. Note however that you are suppose to allow ships from other countries to pass through, even military ships, when they do so with "innocent" purpose.
The Exclusive Economic Zone, established in 1977, set the limit a country can claim to 200 miles from land (artifical islands, constructs, etc. don't count for calculating the limit). This is only for natural resources, so i believe only laws pertaining to that apply.
Somewhere around '96 the EEZ was extended to include all of the continental shelf out to a limit of (IIRC) 350 nautical miles. That limit actually does still come into play at times. For example the Grand Banks off of Newfoundland, Canada extends about 400 nautical miles offshore. This causes issues with fishing, as ships from any country can fish in international waters, but fishing on one side can affect the other (it was much worse before the extension from 200 miles). The international ships will also sometimes cross the line and poach. Not long ago a commercial ship (Porteguese flagged i think) was indeed boarded (and i think even impounded and towed back) by the Canadian government after being pursued out into international waters.
Also it is quite possible that at some point in time oil & gas could be found out on the tip of the Grand Banks tail. Currently oil and gas is being produced offshore, and the formations, at least in theory, could extend all the way out there. I have a friend who is a geologist working on team that is planning an exploration off the coast that is over 100 miles from the nearest well already drilled (not really in the area of the Grand Banks tail though). Interestingly enough part of their research involves studying Spanish geology. There was no Atlantic Ocean at the time the layers of sediment where laid down that they are drilling into looking for natural gas.
Note that there are cases of overlap of these limits where two or more countries have come to an agreement (or still need to
) about where to draw the line. For example Mexico and the US have a treaty divying up the stuff in the Gulf of Mexico (primarily motivated by oil & gas).
Internal Waters is the term where you can exclude everyone. Territorial Waters, which is the 12 mile limit, is where the country's full laws come into effect as though it was on land. Note however that you are suppose to allow ships from other countries to pass through, even military ships, when they do so with "innocent" purpose.
The Exclusive Economic Zone, established in 1977, set the limit a country can claim to 200 miles from land (artifical islands, constructs, etc. don't count for calculating the limit). This is only for natural resources, so i believe only laws pertaining to that apply.
Somewhere around '96 the EEZ was extended to include all of the continental shelf out to a limit of (IIRC) 350 nautical miles. That limit actually does still come into play at times. For example the Grand Banks off of Newfoundland, Canada extends about 400 nautical miles offshore. This causes issues with fishing, as ships from any country can fish in international waters, but fishing on one side can affect the other (it was much worse before the extension from 200 miles). The international ships will also sometimes cross the line and poach. Not long ago a commercial ship (Porteguese flagged i think) was indeed boarded (and i think even impounded and towed back) by the Canadian government after being pursued out into international waters.
Also it is quite possible that at some point in time oil & gas could be found out on the tip of the Grand Banks tail. Currently oil and gas is being produced offshore, and the formations, at least in theory, could extend all the way out there. I have a friend who is a geologist working on team that is planning an exploration off the coast that is over 100 miles from the nearest well already drilled (not really in the area of the Grand Banks tail though). Interestingly enough part of their research involves studying Spanish geology. There was no Atlantic Ocean at the time the layers of sediment where laid down that they are drilling into looking for natural gas.
Note that there are cases of overlap of these limits where two or more countries have come to an agreement (or still need to
) about where to draw the line. For example Mexico and the US have a treaty divying up the stuff in the Gulf of Mexico (primarily motivated by oil & gas).
| QUOTE |
| Note that there are cases of overlap of these limits where two or more countries have come to an agreement (or still need to ) about where to draw the line. For example Mexico and the US have a treaty divying up the stuff in the Gulf of Mexico (primarily motivated by oil & gas). |
There are also some ongoing disputes between less conciliatory nations, i.e. perfect settings for SR (as long as you assume the dispute still isn't solved by then). A prime example is the Caspian Sea, where no less than 5 countries (Iran, Russia, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan) are going nowhere fast on a resolution to divide the large oil & gas reserves. Now throw in some edgy naval border guards, smugglers, environmental activists, a petty despot or two and a brand new US/UK-sponsored pipeline which circumvents the Russian zone of influence... and that's just real life.
| QUOTE |
| If that's the case, the surborbital flights do not have to be registered, only the points where they are actually in the atmosphere (which is also up to interpretation). Though, I can see several (international/corp) sponsored bodies of authorities being used to track for flights anyway just to avoid collisions with other vessels (and space debris). |
We can assume that flight plan requirements would apply up to the altitude where orbit can be achieved (how high is LEO again ?). That could have a lot of influence on the routes of semi-ballistic craft, if they're not allowed to re-enter atmosphere in the airspace of a feuding neighbor or rival megacorp. And if we assume the usual bickering and lack of cooperation between agencies, it's probably easier for runners to mess with a suborbital through the tracking data it receives.
| QUOTE (Pinel) | ||
There are also some ongoing disputes between less conciliatory nations, i.e. perfect settings for SR (as long as you assume the dispute still isn't solved by then). A prime example is the Caspian Sea, where no less than 5 countries (Iran, Russia, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan) are going nowhere fast on a resolution to divide the large oil & gas reserves. Now throw in some edgy naval border guards, smugglers, environmental activists, a petty despot or two and a brand new US/UK-sponsored pipeline which circumvents the Russian zone of influence... and that's just real life. |
Yes, a good RL example of the "or still need to" part.
SoA actually refers to such a conflict in either the Sea of Japan or the East China Sea involving water radicals (what sounds like True Water from Earthdawn) and a metal deposit (containing some made-up isotope of Mg or Mn or something). Wuxing and Shiawase are the companies involved, but they each bought the rights from from different countries (the metal mining was started already and no notification was given).
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