I'm sure this has been beat to death but I couldn't find it.
If two characters are in combat and one is melee and the other is ranged how does that work?
Full Version: Resolving Melee vs. Ranged 3rd Ed.
Ranged guy resists Melee guy with Unarmed or Clubs, defaulting if necessary, and takes the +2 TN for ranged combat in melee.
~J
~J
what about martial arts? Still just use unarmed?
If you've got an applicable martial art, use that instead. Likewise for specializations.
~J
~J
Therein lies my problem with it. How does one properly defend oneself with a defensive karate stance while holding a shotgun?
See what I mean? It doesn't seem so cut and dried then.
See what I mean? It doesn't seem so cut and dried then.
By blocking with the shotgun? Melee is abstract (as you know), so it really isn't too big of an issue, at least to my way of thinking.
This is why I don't use the martial arts rules. The sensible answer is "the same way one would properly defend oneself with a defensive karate stance while holding a short staff", but by making martial arts fancy Unarmed Combat they've nixed that.
~J
~J
Correct, the individual cannot defend himself with unarmed or martial arts skill while holding a shotgun, which is why the clubs skill is required. If the character has no clubbing skill, the shotgun should be dropped or holstered.
Er… 
~J
~J
I agree with Kagetenshi. Where do you get that idea?
I presume that was posted towards me. I do not claim anything I say to be canon or factual, merely my opinion and what has worked in the past.
Maybe I should have used IMHO, but that's redundant. Everything I write is my opinion unless cited factual evidence is quoted or linked (which would be someone else's opinion).
Maybe I should have used IMHO, but that's redundant. Everything I write is my opinion unless cited factual evidence is quoted or linked (which would be someone else's opinion).
Ah, ok. I was under the impression we were discussing how SR3 canon handled this problem.
Indeed. I consider anything stated unqualified to be a statement of either canon or physical fact, since we are on a forum discussing issues that mostly do (or ought to) have fixed answers. Opinion should be in the minority, and thus called out specifically rather than considered the norm.
~J
~J
The question asked how I resolved the issue, I answered.
Though in hind-sight, the "how do you do it?" part of the topic may have been refering to canon and not personal methods. But, such is life.
Though in hind-sight, the "how do you do it?" part of the topic may have been refering to canon and not personal methods. But, such is life.
| QUOTE (Solstice) |
| Therein lies my problem with it. How does one properly defend oneself with a defensive karate stance while holding a shotgun? See what I mean? It doesn't seem so cut and dried then. |
That is where the +2 TN modifier comes from. (And a +2 TN modifier in melee is substancial.)
The +2 TN modifier has nothign to do with what he's talking about. The +2 TN modifier is for shooting while engaged in a melee. Not "defending yourself with a karate stance while swinging a shotgun like a club."
As for me and mine, as far as I can recall, we've always had people use Clubs (with appropriate specializations for rifle butts or pistol whipping, as listed in CC) if they got into the normal "opposed melee check" hooplah while toting a gun. That, or spend your Free Action for that sub-phase dropping it (which is why I've almost always got my SMGs on slings), and then revert to using your usual martial art of choice for ass-kickery.
So if you've got a shotgun out and someone jumps you? You use clubs to defend (for the opposed test, rolled during your enemy's attack action), or you drop the shottie and roll normal wildcat/kung fu/whatever. Either way, he rolls his unarmed combat stuff, you roll clubs/unarmed combat, and you resolve the attack/damage nonsense as normal. His action's over. Then when it's your turn? If you want, you can blast 'em with your shotgun, assuming you're still capable of doing so. If you choose to shoot 'em, you roll your "blast punk ass" skill check with a +2 TN because he's all up in your face and you're bringing a weapon to bear on someone who's arm's length away. He doesn't get any sort of crazy unarmed dodge or anything, just the normal CP (if he wants to use it, and has any left). Or, on your turn, you can choose to keep the brawl going, and retaliate with clubs/unarmed/whatever you have handy (and there's no extra +2 TNs, etc, etc, since no one is shooting a damned thing).
As for me and mine, as far as I can recall, we've always had people use Clubs (with appropriate specializations for rifle butts or pistol whipping, as listed in CC) if they got into the normal "opposed melee check" hooplah while toting a gun. That, or spend your Free Action for that sub-phase dropping it (which is why I've almost always got my SMGs on slings), and then revert to using your usual martial art of choice for ass-kickery.
So if you've got a shotgun out and someone jumps you? You use clubs to defend (for the opposed test, rolled during your enemy's attack action), or you drop the shottie and roll normal wildcat/kung fu/whatever. Either way, he rolls his unarmed combat stuff, you roll clubs/unarmed combat, and you resolve the attack/damage nonsense as normal. His action's over. Then when it's your turn? If you want, you can blast 'em with your shotgun, assuming you're still capable of doing so. If you choose to shoot 'em, you roll your "blast punk ass" skill check with a +2 TN because he's all up in your face and you're bringing a weapon to bear on someone who's arm's length away. He doesn't get any sort of crazy unarmed dodge or anything, just the normal CP (if he wants to use it, and has any left). Or, on your turn, you can choose to keep the brawl going, and retaliate with clubs/unarmed/whatever you have handy (and there's no extra +2 TNs, etc, etc, since no one is shooting a damned thing).
It's not like, if you have a gun in one hand, you can't still use the other three limbs to fight with.
You can use the Clubs skill to hit a guy with your gun (stats are in the Cannon Companion) but I've always figured that the Unarmed skill was always an option, because you always have your body. (Err... excluding Astral/Matrix stuff. You know what I mean.) You can hold a firearm in one hand and still fight with your other hand, elbows, feet, knees, head, and probably a few other parts I'm forgetting. (Nor is pistol-whipping terribly dissimilar in arm motions from a hammerfist strike, but I'm not gonna go there right now.)
Unarmed Combat is fairly open ended, but I've always thought of it as a sort mish-mash of whatever your character happens to know, and many Martial Arts let you fight with various parts of your body (I know this from experience). Just 'cause a hand is occupied doesn't mean you've lost your Unarmed Combat capabilities.
If you have Boxing, however, you can forget about it. That's a strictly fist-based fighting style.
And, as people have said, if you fire a gun while somebody is in melee with you, it's a +2 to Target Number. Somebody shoving your gunhand aside is probably detrimental to one's aim.
You can use the Clubs skill to hit a guy with your gun (stats are in the Cannon Companion) but I've always figured that the Unarmed skill was always an option, because you always have your body. (Err... excluding Astral/Matrix stuff. You know what I mean.) You can hold a firearm in one hand and still fight with your other hand, elbows, feet, knees, head, and probably a few other parts I'm forgetting. (Nor is pistol-whipping terribly dissimilar in arm motions from a hammerfist strike, but I'm not gonna go there right now.)
Unarmed Combat is fairly open ended, but I've always thought of it as a sort mish-mash of whatever your character happens to know, and many Martial Arts let you fight with various parts of your body (I know this from experience). Just 'cause a hand is occupied doesn't mean you've lost your Unarmed Combat capabilities.
If you have Boxing, however, you can forget about it. That's a strictly fist-based fighting style.
And, as people have said, if you fire a gun while somebody is in melee with you, it's a +2 to Target Number. Somebody shoving your gunhand aside is probably detrimental to one's aim.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| The +2 TN modifier has nothign to do with what he's talking about. The +2 TN modifier is for shooting while engaged in a melee. Not "defending yourself with a karate stance while swinging a shotgun like a club." As for me and mine, as far as I can recall, we've always had people use Clubs (with appropriate specializations for rifle butts or pistol whipping, as listed in CC) if they got into the normal "opposed melee check" hooplah while toting a gun. That, or spend your Free Action for that sub-phase dropping it (which is why I've almost always got my SMGs on slings), and then revert to using your usual martial art of choice for ass-kickery. So if you've got a shotgun out and someone jumps you? You use clubs to defend (for the opposed test, rolled during your enemy's attack action), or you drop the shottie and roll normal wildcat/kung fu/whatever. Either way, he rolls his unarmed combat stuff, you roll clubs/unarmed combat, and you resolve the attack/damage nonsense as normal. His action's over. Then when it's your turn? If you want, you can blast 'em with your shotgun, assuming you're still capable of doing so. If you choose to shoot 'em, you roll your "blast punk ass" skill check with a +2 TN because he's all up in your face and you're bringing a weapon to bear on someone who's arm's length away. He doesn't get any sort of crazy unarmed dodge or anything, just the normal CP (if he wants to use it, and has any left). Or, on your turn, you can choose to keep the brawl going, and retaliate with clubs/unarmed/whatever you have handy (and there's no extra +2 TNs, etc, etc, since no one is shooting a damned thing). |
You are right, I took one rule and got it morphed into another posible modifier based on what I quoted.
If Someone insisted on holding their shotgun and assuming a defensive karate stance they should face a TN modifier, perhaps for inferior position or for trying to do 2 things at once.
In your examples, the gun guy uses the gun in a way that it becomes a melee weapon. Good and fine, no modifiers. In my previous (mistaken post) quoted example, the gun guy refuses to use the warrented skill. He wants to use karate, not clubs. Maybe a modifier for defaulting.
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| If Someone insisted on holding their shotgun and assuming a defensive karate stance they should face a TN modifier, perhaps for inferior position or for trying to do 2 things at once. In your examples, the gun guy uses the gun in a way that it becomes a melee weapon. Good and fine, no modifiers. In my previous (mistaken post) quoted example, the gun guy refuses to use the warrented skill. He wants to use karate, not clubs. Maybe a modifier for defaulting. |
Because, you know, you can't use Karate while holding a club.
There should be no penalty for using unarmed/martial arts while holding a weapon - within reason. Obviously you can't pull out ninja moves while wearing a Gyromount harness and toting around an LMG.
Now, if the person wants to HIT the attacker with the GUN, THEN it would be the Clubs skill, and there'd be no defaulting to martial arts involved (unless you have the cannon companion MA rules and have a style that uses clubs as a weapon AND have the relevant...thingy...that thos variants have.)
After all, does Jackie Chan or Jet Li suffer a penalty when they have something in their hands? I think not!
So someone with their hands tied or in leg irons (like a chain gang escapee) should suffer no modifiers to their unarmed combat?
If a guy wants to use karate ( which I think I read meant open hand) refuses to relinquish an object that allows them the full use of the skill, they should suffer nothing for doing so?
If a guy wants to use karate ( which I think I read meant open hand) refuses to relinquish an object that allows them the full use of the skill, they should suffer nothing for doing so?
Karate does mean open hand. Likewise, the name of the place where I live (just outside the place my Location specifies) means "town of mills".
There are no active mills in my town. I leave you to make the connection.
~J
There are no active mills in my town. I leave you to make the connection.
~J
I'd say something simple, if folks are using a specific martial art (from CC) I'd say any martial art that allows a user to "cross manuever" with melee weapons (IE, has the "use an existing manuever with clubs, edged weapons, or blah blah blah" advantage listed) could use their martial art without penalty, despite having their hands full. Similarly, a martial art that has Kick Attack as a manuever option (and as such specifically trains very heavily in using your legs) can fight just fine with their hands full. Otherwise, drop your stuff before you try to punch people.
Seems simple enough to me.
How do you grapple-fu with Judo or Aikido while holding an assault rifle in both hands? Ever seen a boxer try to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee (carrying a squad automatic)?
Seems simple enough to me.
How do you grapple-fu with Judo or Aikido while holding an assault rifle in both hands? Ever seen a boxer try to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee (carrying a squad automatic)?
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