Full Version: Rigging without control rig
Let's say you "jump in" to a drone, or a rigger equipped car, but you have no control rig. What does this gain you? Near as I can figure, you will use your command prgram rating instead of the pilot rating of the drone, which *might* be an improvement (depending on how good your program is, and how good the drone brain is). Drones already get 2 extra initiative passes, so no gain there. You do get the option I suppose of more spontaneous decision making, rather than relying on the AI, but for a car (where a drone brain isn't even relevant), you basically use command rating instead of your attribute (reaction, intuition...whatever is called for). Again, that *might* be an improvement for some, but it may not be. If a hacker has reaction 4, and a command 4 program, does he gain anything for jumping in to his Eurocar?
As I understand it...
With a control rig, you can "jump into" the car... which overrides the drone's dog-brain, and lets you control the vehicle as if it were your own body.
Without one, you can command the drone, by sending commands to the drone, and letting it carry them out.... but this relies on the dog-brain, and you don't actually make a roll to send the commands (except, eprhaps, to check if the drone understood them correctly).
I know that you can use a command program to command some things (camera, drones, vending machies, etc) but I don't beleive that the higher-rating command programs actually improve the devices ability to do its job - possibly just improving your ability to get the command across (or convince the node you are on to allow you to command the device, if you're hacking your way in and not using a real account with command privilages).
I could be wrong about this, and don't have my book with me - but I am pretty sure the command program (at higher ratings) is useful only when operating on someone else's system.
With a control rig, you can "jump into" the car... which overrides the drone's dog-brain, and lets you control the vehicle as if it were your own body.
Without one, you can command the drone, by sending commands to the drone, and letting it carry them out.... but this relies on the dog-brain, and you don't actually make a roll to send the commands (except, eprhaps, to check if the drone understood them correctly).
I know that you can use a command program to command some things (camera, drones, vending machies, etc) but I don't beleive that the higher-rating command programs actually improve the devices ability to do its job - possibly just improving your ability to get the command across (or convince the node you are on to allow you to command the device, if you're hacking your way in and not using a real account with command privilages).
I could be wrong about this, and don't have my book with me - but I am pretty sure the command program (at higher ratings) is useful only when operating on someone else's system.
command rating replaces the drone's pilot when remote controlling it, not rigging it.
you do not need a control rig to jump into a vehicle. it is contradicted in a couple of places, but it says you don't need one more often than it says you do, iirc.
when rigging a vehicle (jumped into it) you use your own attributes. a control rig gives you +2 dice to all actions taken.
you do not need a control rig to jump into a vehicle. it is contradicted in a couple of places, but it says you don't need one more often than it says you do, iirc.
when rigging a vehicle (jumped into it) you use your own attributes. a control rig gives you +2 dice to all actions taken.
Which does not really elaborate on what you gain by doing it. When driving the vehicle mundanely, you use your own attributes. I think you use command when jumped in, but maybe not. If not, my question applies more so...what's the point?
| QUOTE (Xeros @ Nov 9 2005, 09:15 AM) |
| Which does not really elaborate on what you gain by doing it. When driving the vehicle mundanely, you use your own attributes. I think you use command when jumped in, but maybe not. If not, my question applies more so...what's the point? |
-1 Threshhold for the vehicle actions for being in VR is the one universal advantage.
The other "differences" might or might not be an advantage depending on your stats and situational requirements. For example you can take other Matrix actions while jumped in, but meat world actions are extremely difficult. Also Cold sim having 2 IP total, Init Pool=Intuition + Response, and hot sim having 3 IP total, Init Pool=Intuition + Response + 1 (and IMO +2 dice for an action in the Matrix, but that is debatable and currently waiting for an answer from info(a)shadowrunrgp.com ). Whether that's better than your meat world depends on your Reaction attribute and augmentation to your IP.
EDIT: Oh, and don't forget the obvious advantage. You don't actually have to be in the vehicle to drive it via jumped in VR.
| QUOTE (Xeros @ Nov 9 2005, 09:15 AM) |
| I think you use command when jumped in, but maybe not. If not, my question applies more so...what's the point? |
Oh, and on this matter:
| QUOTE (page 239) |
| A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger’s Initiative—the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests are made using the rigger’s own skill and attributes. |
You may or may not actually use the Command program. There is some debate about this, IMO no because you don't actually use the dice from it. Others hold a different view. However in any case you don't use the Command program rating, at the very most it would just require that you have it running at whatever rating.
Instead you use whatever pool you'd normally use for the vehicle action. Does it make sense to use the "physical" attribute Reaction for driving tests while jumped in? *shrug* Not really, but Reaction is sort of on the borderline betwen physical/mental. Agility for Gunnery is right bonkers though.
Frankly i'm be more inclined to use their mental counterparts as detailed in Astral. So Logic in place of Agility (for Gunnery), and Intuition in place of Reaction. But that ain't RAW as far as i know.
So we're back to not being certain what the command program is even used for. Gah!
and as to
"-1 Threshhold for the vehicle actions for being in VR is the one universal advantage."
I still haven't found that in the book.
edit: ok, I found the part where it confirms that remotely controlling a drone uses command program as the relevant attribute. So it's only useful if it's already higher than the pilot rating, and apparently not useful at all if I am jumped into a car. So it remains to determine why would I ever jump into the car, unless the above quote is true, I just can't find the reference. However, command program doesn't enter into it.
and as to
"-1 Threshhold for the vehicle actions for being in VR is the one universal advantage."
I still haven't found that in the book.
edit: ok, I found the part where it confirms that remotely controlling a drone uses command program as the relevant attribute. So it's only useful if it's already higher than the pilot rating, and apparently not useful at all if I am jumped into a car. So it remains to determine why would I ever jump into the car, unless the above quote is true, I just can't find the reference. However, command program doesn't enter into it.
there is a rule that full-VR mode gives you -1 threshhold to all matrix tests... but it is in debate whetehr driving a vehicle in full VR mode counts as a matrix test or not.
Also, you would jump int othe car if you were good at driving cars (had a high drive skill).
[Dice pool = Reaction + Drive skill (+2 with control rig)]
Otherwise, command the drone, which is already good at driving itself (and possibly has maneuver autosoft to add to the pool).
[Dice pool = pilot (or command?) + maneuver autosoft]
ACtually, on second thought, I'm not sure... with command program you might have
[Dice Pool = Command program + Drive Skill] since you're sort of remote-controling the car, and not letting the drone do the driving.
[Dice pool = Reaction + Drive skill (+2 with control rig)]
Otherwise, command the drone, which is already good at driving itself (and possibly has maneuver autosoft to add to the pool).
[Dice pool = pilot (or command?) + maneuver autosoft]
ACtually, on second thought, I'm not sure... with command program you might have
[Dice Pool = Command program + Drive Skill] since you're sort of remote-controling the car, and not letting the drone do the driving.
Um...it's +2 dice, not -1 threshold for hot sim. Cold sim does nothing but give you better initiative....or have I missed something?
And yeah, I suppose we could discuss whether rigging a car is a matrix action, but you could argue your doing VR inside the matrix of the car itself. If you were though, I am suprised you are not bound to the sensor limitations of the vehicle.
And yeah, I suppose we could discuss whether rigging a car is a matrix action, but you could argue your doing VR inside the matrix of the car itself. If you were though, I am suprised you are not bound to the sensor limitations of the vehicle.
The argument comes from a table, in the matrix section, which lists "matrix actions", and driving vehicles isn't on it... those are listed in a different section on vehicles and rigging.
| QUOTE (BlackHat) |
| The argument comes from a table, in the matrix section, which lists "matrix actions", and driving vehicles isn't on it... those are listed in a different section on vehicles and rigging. |
That is one way to read it. Use Search, and you'll see my answer. This really has been rehashed to the point of needing an offical clarification to determine canon.
| QUOTE (BlackHat @ Nov 9 2005, 11:33 AM) |
| there is a rule that full-VR mode gives you -1 threshhold to all matrix tests... but it is in debate whetehr driving a vehicle in full VR mode counts as a matrix test or not. |
No, -1 Threshhold is back in the Vehicle Combat section (they improved things somewhat, but still some closely related rules are split up). Driving with Augmented or Virtual Reality, page 159.
EDIT: And applies to both cold and hot sim.
| QUOTE (Xeros @ Nov 9 2005, 11:43 AM) |
| And yeah, I suppose we could discuss whether rigging a car is a matrix action, but you could argue your doing VR inside the matrix of the car itself. If you were though, I am suprised you are not bound to the sensor limitations of the vehicle. |
| QUOTE (page 239) |
| When observing through a drone, a rigger rolls Sensor (rather than Intuition) + Perception. |
That is an explicit exception (although not called an exception in the text) to using your own Skills + Attributes.
EDIT:
| QUOTE |
| So we're back to not being certain what the command program is even used for. Gah! |
I'm still not certain myself, and i change my mind from time to time.
I wouldn't bother with it though ingame. It isn't worth the extra hassle for the [usually] small difference of program count and time to startup the program. The later assuming it isn't part of the Complex Action to jump in.
well.... the rigger needs a high reaction, high piloting skill, gunnery, and thats it. You can be a rigger with no ware, if you use trodes. cyber gives you a +2, and can boost your reaction. but the cyber is no longer mandatory to doing the job.
so a rigger can get 5(7) reaction, skill 5 in to things, +2 for specialization, +2 for cyberware, +1 dice or -1 threshold, and smartlink his gunnery. 16 dice to throw at a test, with the threshold lowered by one, you could just buy successes and hit a threshold 5 with ease.
having 2 to 4 times as many dice lets you do crazy stuff. a rigger that good should not have to worry about most driving tests. but then theres poor visibility, rain, offroad, and damaged vehicles- thats when you need the rigger to stay alive.
so a rigger can get 5(7) reaction, skill 5 in to things, +2 for specialization, +2 for cyberware, +1 dice or -1 threshold, and smartlink his gunnery. 16 dice to throw at a test, with the threshold lowered by one, you could just buy successes and hit a threshold 5 with ease.
having 2 to 4 times as many dice lets you do crazy stuff. a rigger that good should not have to worry about most driving tests. but then theres poor visibility, rain, offroad, and damaged vehicles- thats when you need the rigger to stay alive.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||||
That is an explicit exception (although not called an exception in the text) to using your own Skills + Attributes. |
True...though that's an ugly liability as well. If rigging my spiffy eurocar westwind, I am bound to it's crappy sensor rating of 1 (barring a clearsight autosoft)
| QUOTE (Xeros @ Nov 9 2005, 12:35 PM) |
| True...though that's an ugly liability as well. If rigging my spiffy eurocar westwind, I am bound to it's crappy sensor rating of 1 (barring a clearsight autosoft) |
You laid the cash out for a sweet ride? Why not buy some improved sensors?..... Oh ya, the Sensor gear rules are incredibily vague and the Camera, Laser Range Finder, Microphone, and Motion Sensor don't have ratings so the rules don't explain how to increase a vehicle's Sensor rating.
I guess that means waiting, or house rules, till Arsenal (IIRC that's where the extra vehicle stuff is going to be?) or Unwired.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| For example you can take other Matrix actions while jumped in, but meat world actions are extremely difficult. |
are you saying that i can in theory hack a system while doing 200 kph down the highway?
hell, hand me the keys of that warvan
now all i need is either a drone trailing a fibreoptic cable and carrying a radio unit so that i can bypass shielded walls, or a whole army of small retrans drones.
| QUOTE (Xeros) |
| ok, I found the part where it confirms that remotely controlling a drone uses command program as the relevant attribute. |
Mind giving me a page number on this one? I went to look for it, and can't find it.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| are you saying that i can in theory hack a system while doing 200 kph down the highway? |
Better than that, from what I can see, you can actually be fully jumped in to multiple vehicles according to page 218 (if you consider each vehicle to be a different node). Providing you spend at least one complex action each turn for each vehicle, you can be fully jumped in to and rigging a couple of vehicles at once
| QUOTE (BlackHat @ Nov 9 2005, 09:18 PM) | ||
Mind giving me a page number on this one? I went to look for it, and can't find it. |
Second paragraph from the bottom right, page 220. There are a few places that reference this Controlling Devices section, but they incorrectly point you to page 221. It's one of a few incorrect reference page numbers that i've noticed. I think they have been covered off in the Errata thread (sadly too late to make it into the first errata and second PDF) but i've never gotten around to making sure of that.
| QUOTE (NightRain @ Nov 9 2005, 10:03 PM) |
| Better than that, from what I can see, you can actually be fully jumped in to multiple vehicles according to page 218 (if you consider each vehicle to be a different node). Providing you spend at least one complex action each turn for each vehicle, you can be fully jumped in to and rigging a couple of vehicles at once |
I don't think it's quite as easy as a normal node switch though. On page 239 top right it says it is a Complex action to jump into drone. However in the righthand column it lists the action Jump into/Leave a Drone (Simple). I read this to mean that the initial hook-up is a Complex Action, but switching between them is a Simple Action. It could also be a flat out error, or misleading in that the Simple Action is only ment for Leave a Drone. I assume this was mentioned at some point in the Eratta or Hacking & Rigging sticky threads at the top, but i don't recall the discussion and i'm not in the mood to sift through 730 posts to try find it (i haven't figured out how to get Search to take you quickly to the individual posts that have the hits).
Given that it's a real juggling act for a rigger to keep 2 vehicles on the road himself without the Pilot driving, and only can be pulled of in Hot Sim...or with generous use off Edge to get the 3rd IP.
They are also quite likely to get their butts handed to them by a combat opponent who is dedicating 2 or 3 actions to actual driving, or other stuff like firing weapons. Not sure what would happen when a vehicle becomes involved in an Opposed Vehicle Test or Crash Test when the rigger was elsewhere? I guess the Pilot would have to take over for that?
| QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Nov 10 2005, 08:33 AM) |
| are you saying that i can in theory hack a system while doing 200 kph down the highway? |
Yes, but unlike current commuters, the VR makes it really tough to put on makeup, drink coffee, read the newspaper, or change your clothes while driving.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| Second paragraph from the bottom right, page 220. |
Thank you very much.
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