I have been reading through the astral space section lately wondering how much things have changed between editions. Maybe I misread some of the rules or they have already been discussed so bare with me. The main thing I noticed was the fact that you can no longer attack spells or foci. I remember in SR3, the magician would usually have a spirit on hand for astral overwatch or just do it themself. I would always disrupt spells and foci in astral space. Now it appears you can no longer do that. They changed the game mechanics to counterspelling, and it adds that in order to dispell a spell the magician must be on the same plane (pg 176). Weren't spells always considered to be on the astral plane? They are magic after all!!! With this in mind what spells would be considered on the physical plane or astral plane?
This changes many things about astral space. Now besides a pure recon role, what purpose will providing astral overwatch do? Sure you can still interact with dual natured beings, but you don't appear to be able to do much else.
I remember the good old days when you would drop on spell on someone who had a magical foci active. Now it doesn't appear you can touch them at all. Please tell me, am I missing something.

thing is that most likely it will not physicaly damage the object that makes up the foci. what it will do however is basicly destroy the foci's enchantment.

I guess my group never picked up on the change from SR2 to SR3. We always played that you could attack a spell the same as a foci from astral space.

RunnerPaul: So can a manifested astral magician actually target beings on the physical plane with spells? That's what I gathered from your post. Reading the rules I got the impression manifesting would be good for communicating and little else.

I guess astral overwatch could still be used for summoning and directing spirits to attack beings on the physical plane also.

manifesting isnt creating a physical presence. it basicly makes normal people see and hear their astral shape or something like that. something similar to spot a ghost or something. anything electronic dont pick up the manifesting mage i think.

Manafesting is the flipside to astrally percieving. With Astral Perception, you have a physical being extending a portion of itself into the astral plane, and as such, they can cast spells on either plane.

With Manifesting, you have an Astral Being extending a portion of itself into the physical plane.

unless they changed the meaning between sr3 and sr4 a mage manifesting and a spirit manifesting is two diffrent things.

a spirit creates itself a fully physical body when manifesting.

the mage on the other hand just makes himself seen and heard by living beings. cameras cant see him, drones cant detect him and so on. ie, they are using the same term for two diffrent things. a astraly projecting mage have never been able to directly attack a fully mundane target. only by using the grounding targets in sr2 and earlier could they do that and that required a dual natured "bridge" and a area effect spell.

in essence, a mage "manifesting" is more like a ghosty appearance then a real manifestation. sadly i find a diffrent term to use for this in replacement to manifesting.

as for the internetation about attacking foci, thats only my personal interpetation. with a spell or a spirit or barrier the creation is primary astral, destroy the astral part and the physical part (if any) can no longer exist. however a foci is a magical effect bonded to a material item. basicly attacking and destroying that effect in the astral only cuts that bond, it never realy affect the physical item.

Technically, spirits materialize, while magicians and watchers manifest. Materialized spirits are dual natured and can do all kinds of crazy crap. Manifested astral beings are (more) visible, but otherwise just as impotent on the physical as they were before.

-Frank

err, i read runnerpauls post wrong. i missed that he was talking about astral perception and not projection. sorry about that.

i had allso forgotten that siprits materialize. and the very word descibe the actions thats out of the way. not a good day for me it seems.

still, calling manifestation the flipside of astral perception isnt entirely correct. just perception is enough to affect anything on the astral side. manifesting does not make the mage able to affect anything on the physical side...

I am fairly sure that a manifesting magician cannot cast spells on a physical target.

While it does say that you can use physical or mana spells in the physical world (p. 195, SR4), at no time does it say that you can use mana spells from the astral worl to the physical world.

-Frank

It comes down to how much "presence" a manifested mage actually has on the physical plane. We know that they have enough presence to be a valid target for spells cast at them from the physical plane. (p.184) It's limited to mana spells, but that's just because a manifested being has no physical form to affect.

Considering they have enough presence to be affected by a spell on the physical plane, why wouldn't that presence be enough to let them manipulate the mana on the physical plane and cast their own spells?