Is there any test for a free spirit to use its Atral Gateway power on an involuntary target?
Evidently they can use it on involuntary targets, because it is described as being possible in order to engage an adversary in astral combat for the purposes of Possession. So if a spirit wants to Possess a target, is there a test beyond the astral combat? I also don't see any modifiers for the spirit in astral combat for maintaining the astral gateway.
If a mundane got sucked into the astral gateway so the spirit could try to Possess him, by defeating the spirit does the mundane sign his own death warrant? Because it says a mundane dies instantly if the spirit drops the astral gateway, and assuming the full stun damage causes this drop. So couldn't the spirit point this out and perhaps get a willing Possession? For that matter, even a magician could get astral gatewayed to a metaplane, and if they are not an initiate, face the same drop gateway = death problem.
This came up during a game, and the quick ruling was no test needed. It just seems kind of wrong when you consider the outcomes - death or possession unless initiated.
Full Version: Astral Gateway free spirit power
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| Is there any test for a free spirit to use its Atral Gateway power on an involuntary target? |
After looking through Shadowrun 3rd Ed. and Magic in the Shadows, I would have to say that no, there is no test. It just happens. Feels broken to me, but I couldn't find any mention of a roll of any kind. All it says under the power's description is this (from Magic in the Shadows, p. 117):
"Normally, a spirit uses this power on willing subjects. However, a free spirit with this power and the power of possession (see p. 99) can force anyone, even mundanes, into astral combat so that it may possess them."
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| If a mundane got sucked into the astral gateway so the spirit could try to Possess him, by defeating the spirit does the mundane sign his own death warrant? |
No, here's why (also from Magic in the Shadows, p. 117): "Free spirits cannot, however, use this power to suck victims into astral space and then abandon them to die." The implication is that if used on an unwilling mundane target, the power is not an insta-kill. I'd suggest that the target simply returns to their body.
Velocity, I hope you have searchable pdfs. I certainly didn't want everyone, or anyone, to have to read entire sections of the book for me. During the game, I looked at the power description real quick. After the game, I looked where I thought it might explain further, but I've been known to overlook contradictory rules in another section that pertain to the question. Thanks anyway.
| QUOTE (Velocity) | ||
No, here's why (also from Magic in the Shadows, p. 117): "Free spirits cannot, however, use this power to suck victims into astral space and then abandon them to die." The implication is that if used on an unwilling mundane target, the power is not an insta-kill. I'd suggest that the target simply returns to their body. |
So by that reasoning, only willing subjects can die if the spirit drops the power. I agree the spirit can't suck them into astral space just to kill them. But if the spirits intention is to possess them, then how can the subject avoid the death outcome by successfully defending themselves in astral combat, that is, disrupting or banishing the spirit? It seems the only possibility without creating a special rule, is to bring the spirit so close to disruption or banishment that it voluntarily returns the subject to the physical plane. Does the subject have to use the subduing option?
| QUOTE |
| Velocity, I hope you have searchable pdfs. I certainly didn't want everyone, or anyone, to have to read entire sections of the book for me. |
No worries, I do have searchable PDFs.
Besides, the question interested me.| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| If a mundane got sucked into the astral gateway so the spirit could try to Possess him, by defeating the spirit does the mundane sign his own death warrant? |
| QUOTE (Velocity) |
| No, here's why (also from Magic in the Shadows, p. 117): "Free spirits cannot, however, use this power to suck victims into astral space and then abandon them to die." The implication is that if used on an unwilling mundane target, the power is not an insta-kill. I'd suggest that the target simply returns to their body. |
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| So by that reasoning, only willing subjects can die if the spirit drops the power. I agree the spirit can't suck them into astral space just to kill them. But if the spirits intention is to possess them, then how can the subject avoid the death outcome by successfully defending themselves in astral combat, that is, disrupting or banishing the spirit? It seems the only possibility without creating a special rule, is to bring the spirit so close to disruption or banishment that it voluntarily returns the subject to the physical plane. Does the subject have to use the subduing option? |
This is a bit of a sticky wicket. I'd avoid using the rules for subduing combat, as I think they're broken to begin with and besides, it seems weird to suggest "grappling" an astral-form spirit.
My suggestion is this: if the victim of the Astral Gateway power, (who's also under attack by the Possession power) defeats the spirit in astral combat, they instantly slam back into their body. AFAIK, it's neither supported nor prohibited by the rules and it gives the victim an out.
I don't know if there's any book evidence to back this up, but I have ruled that when a spirit uses the Astral Gateway power to force someone into Astral Combat, the victim doesn't project, only perceive. If the spirit is defeated then the Astral Perception just ends abruptly and the person is a little disoriented, but otherwise fine. Technically, I suppose, the unwilling subject of Astral Gateway could project and fight the spirit on its own terms, and that's where the possibility of insta-death comes in.
A Projecting character always has a connection to its physical body and, unless a Shedim is squatting in the meat, will instantly return if disrupted.
Mundanes are not able to project on their own. If a Free Spirit drops the Astral Gateway power any mundane that it forced to project can no longer project. Ergo, the Mundan's Astral form ceases to be. Ergo, the mundane's Astral Form is disrupted. Ergo, it instantly returns to the mundane's body.
Or, looking at it another way. All Astral Forms that have bodies can return to those bodies willingly and without any special skill. If the mundane's Astral Form decides to return to his body then it can proiving that it can find the body.
Mundanes are not able to project on their own. If a Free Spirit drops the Astral Gateway power any mundane that it forced to project can no longer project. Ergo, the Mundan's Astral form ceases to be. Ergo, the mundane's Astral Form is disrupted. Ergo, it instantly returns to the mundane's body.
Or, looking at it another way. All Astral Forms that have bodies can return to those bodies willingly and without any special skill. If the mundane's Astral Form decides to return to his body then it can proiving that it can find the body.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| A Projecting character always has a connection to its physical body and, unless a Shedim is squatting in the meat, will instantly return if disrupted. |
Right, but has little bearing on the discussion. If the person got disrupted that means the spirit won and can now possess said body.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Mundanes are not able to project on their own. If a Free Spirit drops the Astral Gateway power any mundane that it forced to project can no longer project. Ergo, the Mundan's Astral form ceases to be. Ergo, the mundane's Astral Form is disrupted. Ergo, it instantly returns to the mundane's body. |
Maybe you missed the part about a mundane on the astral or a non-initiate on a metaplane who got there using astral gateway dies if the gateway closes. (MitS.117)
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Or, looking at it another way. All Astral Forms that have bodies can return to those bodies willingly and without any special skill. If the mundane's Astral Form decides to return to his body then it can proiving that it can find the body. |
This sounds like no test or roll required - just like the astral gateway power the spirit can use to force them into astral combat in the first place. If all the person who got pulled through the gate needs to do is go back, how can the spirit force an astral combat. Ergo (
) something about that explanation does not make sense.
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