The astral combat rules are a bit sparse (okay, very sparse) but I'm going to assume that astral combat is handled like melee combat. Why? Because (though it isn't stated) it seems to happen at melee ranges. At least, it did in previous editions, which is all I've really got to go on.

This should mean that the defender gets a chance to defend (even if it's ranged, the defender should get a chance to defend, right?) Well... with what?

Attacker rolls Willpower + Astral Combat against fully astral entities (we'll assume that's the case for now.)

Defender rolls...??? reaction + Dodge, as in normal melee? Or... reaction + blades, if blocking with even a mundane weapon (if you where dual natured)? How about with a weapon focus? Or instead, should it be Reaction + Astral Combat (Astral reaction if projecting)? This would make sense, except that Astral Combat is not a skill you can default for... so would you get no defense if you weren't trained?

This is yet another place in the book where some examples (or even actually stating the whole rules) would have been greatly appreciated.

Unless the 4th edition Astral Combat rules have changed dramatically [Edit] from 3rd Ed[/Edit], I don't think ranged combat is possible. For anything else, I'd need access to a book.

Yea, I see it "mostly" stated here now. "There are no known ranged weapons that function in Astral Space." So it's all definitely melee, as it should be. But... it still doesn't say how to resolve the defender's rolls.

actually if you have spells you can use em as ranged weapons.

I am also a little unsure about certain aspects. However, it's changed a bit.

In the old SR games, while astral, you used what skills you new in astral combat, but you used your Astral stats. If you were only astrally percieving, however, you used your physical stats and skills.

Now, apparently you always have to use Astral Combat to affect the Astral Plane. What me and some friends here don't like about this rule is that even while percieving, you must use Astral Combat apparently(but physical stats.) This makes no sense to use, as while percieving, it's like 'putting on the overlay glasses'...you are still in your meatbod...thus you should get to use your physical skills(and initative...and trust me this can hurt) as well. There are adepts out there in SR3 who used to be able to actually help out on the astral plane(percieve, then possibly defeat something on the plane if they had a focus/Killing Hands), but now they must default to Astral Combat if they don't have it.

So me and my buddy decided a strong possiblity for a houserule:

While Astral: Astral Combat, Astral Stats, Astral Initative
While Percieving: Physical stats/skills/initative.

I kind of this this makes more sense.

But i agree that the astral rules are a tiny bit vague at points.

I think forcing a physad to use astral combat is a little demanding, but it still makes sense. Think about it this way. The astral plane in unfamiliar to you. It functions on different rules of physics (think movement rates). I would think while on the physical plane, you use astral combat and physical attributes. This would tie you to your physical abilities but still represent the difficulties of affecting a alien landscape. You might argue that it is familiar to you if you have the ability to perceive it, but I still think if you were more familiar with it you would have the skill to represent this.

It seems that you only use Willpower+Astral Combat when fighting as or fighting against purely astral entities. On the other hand, keep in mind that if you don't have astral combat you can't default on it, so if you're perceiving and being attacked by a spirit, or if you're projecting and getting beat on my an adept, and don't have the skill you basically have to take whatever they dish out.

in the case of adepts or magicians, I'm pretty sure it's always been the rule that there are special skills for astral combat but....

If they are using anything other then force of will etc, like say a weapon foci, they use thier skill with the weapon.

Melee combat is still melee combat, even in the astral world. I would think these two things come into play.

1) if you intend to 'block' or parry or whatever, you use astral combat just like you'd use the other combat skills (or with a weapon foci, the foci's weapon skill, since the magic in the weapon obviously functions like astral combat despite).
2) use the dodge function. even a spirit has a set 'limb' or whatever that's doing the attacking, it's not a spell that targets you and goes off - you can move out of the way.

Naturally, if you're projecting, you already have 'metaphysical stats' that represent the appropriate attributes. If you're just perceiving, you'd still use the usual limits of your body and mind for the defense - unless you throw up a mana barrier or something at the last second.

I think that's all I intended to post...haven't logged in for ages, but I got the SR4 book (and I love it too)!

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Actually, I'm gonna correct myself, I thnk you can fight things without astral combat if you're perceiving, it's just much harder unless you got a 'forceful personality'

I'll go look into that again.

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Heh, I recorrect myself. they copy/pasted the flavor text as it were, but otherwise the only way a mundane will ever hurt a spirit in physical form without magic is to beat their immunity with sheer power

Granted, it's easier with low rating spirits, but if someone summons a 6 or higher - you might want to find a mage (or adept with a foci, etc, etc).